h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Without boring you with Masonic History which in itself is pretty boring inasmuch as what is known is very limited, most Masonic hisorians now agree that Freemasonry, i:e a Fraternal society dedicated to preserve certain moral attitudes and behaviour, and to serve charity, began in England.
Scotland had a history of organised Lodges of proper stonemasons, with a history of strict rules of recognition, and a hierachy which included the nobility.
Scottish expatriates helped form a society for men who had never lifted a stone, and hijacked the old scottish customs which they then exported to Scotland (and the rest of the world) as Freemasonry. The Templar nonsense only started with Chevalier Ramsay who for politico/Religious reasons painted a romantic story of a link with the Templars.
Remember that there were English templars at Bannockburn.
If there was anything under King Solomon's Temple, the Romans would have found it,or the saracens. People were vey good at finding buried treasure, look at most of the Egyptian burial sites which had been plundered before the Archeologists got to them.
finally which Templars were the founders of Freemasonry.

It is well-known that a large Templar fleet departed La Rochelle with most of the vast Templar wealth. It is known that Robert the Bruce summarily dismissed the papal bull ordering the arrest of Templars. It is known that, a few months after Jacques de Molay was burned at the stake, the battle at Bannockburn was fought. It is known from the fragmentary reports on that battle that two contingents of mounted knights appeared at the battlefield from two different directions and decided the outcome... this in a kingdom perpetually bereft of heavy knights.

English Templars would have been involved, yes. But were there enough English Templars available to comprise two forces? Not all English Templars would have fled... Edward II honored the papal bull enough to confiscate Templar property, but allowed his knights the choice of a monastic life over imprisonment. Most made that choice.

So where would the extra knights come from? La Rochelle, of course.

Whenever I read the words "Well Known", in historical terms, I reach for my pen, or at least the modern equivalent. As far as Bannockburn is concerned, no one is really sure where the battle took place. There is no eyewitness report or royal Archives giving details. Our "Knowledge" comes from rteports written byJohn Barbour who was not there and wrote in the style of the time almost as a ballad. The english were supposed to number 100000, which is impossible, but there is no report of Templars or knights joining the battle. The Chroniclers do mention a "Fresh Force", and it is first mentioned that these are latecomers, non combatants, who the English thought were a fresh army, and panicked, and the newcomers joined the battle.History proves that you dont need mysteious interventions to win battles the english had done to them what they would do at Agincourt.
I feel quite strongly after reading Holy Blood and Holy Grail some years ago and being knocked out by it, that we have to be extremely cynical about these so called Historians who "prove" things.
Remember Kon Tiki which proved that South Americans sailes to the south pacific islands. Disproved by DNA studies. Remember "Was God an Astronaut".Lets write a new one.
"How the USA was created by Freemasons, and the Mafia was set up by the Catholic Church to destroy it. It might just work.
Incidentally this is the first conversation I have joined on the net, are we the only one out ther?

You're not the only ones out there, but you're the only ones with any 'knowledge' on the subject you're discussing. I'm just letting you get on with it, while enjoying the debate.

Freemasonry interests me very little. The connections between the Templars, the Sinclairs, Scottish Masons (who never actually touched a stone), and Rosslyn are all that interest me at the moment. Besides, I think someone has already written that nonsense about America, Freemasonry, and the Mafia.

As for people finding buried treasure... first you have to dig. The ruins of Troy were sitting there for eons along a busy coast, but it wasn't found until someone picked up copies of Homer and went looking. Herod destroyed the temple in the midst of a rebellion. He may not have known of treasure vaults underneath, and he wouldn't dig it up because it would have made the situation worse. The Saracens considered the site holy and built a mosque on it.

First let us consider palestine/Israel in the Roman Empire. It was a little, trivial province. It was looked on as a poor posting and a career backwater by Pontius Pilate. What treasure could there be. If they had had treasure, be in no doubt that the Romans, or before them the Selucids would have found it. The saracens built a mosque there for two reasons. It was the highest point in the city, and it was a poke in the eye for the Jews and Christians. Incidentally if you read about Emporer Constantine and his loony mother you will find how she went to the Holy Land and miraculously discovered relics of Jesus and I think the actual birthplace of Jesus. This nonsense sent the catholic church when it became established into making a packet out of selling splinters from the true cross and was good for getting soldiers to go and fight for them.
The Temple whilst important to the Israelites was only an example of the spread of greek culture throughout the Med.
The temple was built by Herod, but destroyed in AD 70 after thr rebellion.
We have to be very careful when looking at this subject of the Templars. Most of the Historians are lets be honest Charlatans who know that they can make vast amounts of money fron the likes of us who buy this crap at airports or Christmas. What are the credentials of people like Baigent, Leigh or Lincoln.
We cannot acces original sources so it is important that we look cynically at these pseudo historians.
Unlike the English Masons the scots actually did work on stone untill the work dried up and they adopted speculative masonry like the English.
The only mystery that concerns me that I have not found a satisfactory answer for is....What did the Templars believe, worship, and do in secret?

Don't confuse Templar treasure with Temple treasure. The Templars operated a massive trade fleet, acted as moneylenders in a Catholic environment that forbade moneylending, and were granted large estates by both church and state which generated revenue. The Templars were a massive economic force, and their central base of operations and heaviest concentration of assets was southern France. Most of their treasure was there, and Phillip IV wanted it. Yet when his men began the roundup, the treasure was gone.

It is clear that something of incredible value was found in the Jerusalem temple by the excavators. It did not have to be gold and jewels to be valuable. Books or scrolls would be far more valuable. As the order's greatest treasures, they would have gone with the escaping fleet.

Possession of books or scrolls plundered from the temple would account for certain oddities in Templar behaviors and beliefs. While it is true that they were Christians, it's clear that they had a rather different flavor of it, which was obvious to all but mysteriously accepted by the Church (in the same way Irish Catholicism was accepted). Their symbology and their ceremonies were
markedly different, and theories attempting to explain them run the gamut. They've been linked to gnosticism and a peculiar type of Christianity that reveres John the Baptist over Jesus, but it's all speculation.

Unless something can be found under Rosslyn, of course.

Good old rosslyn. Some people believe it was built as a beacon for UFO's. Some people believe it has secret templar documents which contain the true idenrity of Christ's living sucessor, some believe that the "head" which the templars were said to worship was the skull uf christ and is buried there.Ttewart Beatie, director of the Rosslyn trust, says thet they have done geo phys surveys and found nothing, and that the imagry leans more to Scandinavian folklore than to Templar Mysticism.
In 1736 when Scottish Speculative freemasonry was established with a grand lodge, Sir William Sinvlair as Grand master gave up his traditional patronage of Masonry.
Rosslyn is a nice little curiosity noting else

Just because some outlandish theories about Rosslyn have been invented doesn't mean this theory is wrong. There are a lot of fantastic stories about the Titanic sinking, too, but they don't change the fact that it did sink.

The Templars clearly found something of value under the Temple, they clearly escaped with their greatest treasures from France, and they most likely found refuge with their treasures in Scotland. Once you accept that, anyplace in Scotland is a possible resting place of those valuables. Rosslyn is just a good candidate based on its Templar connections and its architectural connection to the Temple of Jerusalem.

Many years ago when I was still fairly young, I had a revelation. It was at the time of the Queen's silver jubilee. At that time I was like most people an unthinking Monarchist. I quite likes the idea of a big National party, and a jubilee was as good an excuse as any other, but when the commentators kept on talking about what a wonderful woman the queen was, and how hard she worked, I couldn't help comparing her to my mother who worked 8-5 in a noisy, smelly factory, walked a mile to catch the bus,came home fed the family did the ironing and housework. It was as if the truth had hit me over the head.We monarchists were brainwashed, just as the troops had been brainwashed in 1914, and 1945 to beleive. Once I realised this it was a short step to realising the fundamental truth of the world and universe.THERE IS NO SUPERSTITIOUS EXPLANATION FOR ANYTHING. There is no such thing as magic.
There is no such thing as God, Astrology Homeopathy, biorythms,Holy Grail, World conspiracy, Templar Treasure, Hiram Key, Holy Blood.
What there is is belief and once you believe something you need no proof. Ask any religious person. You can't disprove that I have a little pink yeti sitting on my shoulder whispering the secrets of the universe into my ear. I know he is there, I can see him, and whats more I can give you hundreds of reasons why you can't

What the hell does superstition have to do with Templar treasure? What does the queen have to do with anything?

The treasure was real. It went somewhere.

ok what is the documented evidence of Templar Treasuure, land went to the crown in England and Scotland, money went to the hospitalers.
You believe in buried treasure if you want to and Ive still got my little pink yeti on my shoulder, god was an astronaut, and there are ufo landing sites in peru

It must be nice to know it all.

For your information, no valuables were found in France. Or Ireland, for that matter. Makes it a bit difficult to transfer those funds to the Hospitallers, don't you think?

Or do you think?

Philip instigated the persecution of the templars for two main reasons.
he owed them a lot of money.
he didn't like the idea of a private army, more professional than his on his premises. Most Templar wealth was invested, ie, lent to royalty of Europe.
The Templars were ripe for attacking. They were increasinly divided on nationalistic grounds. Templars in Portugal had to be Portugese, likewise german territories, and spain. Edward of England used Templars without De Molay's permission, for Nationalistic purposes.
before philip moved against the templars he moved against the Jews.
The Templars were only persecuted in France and the Papal states. Robert Bruce had been excommunicated so ignored thepapal bull, Edward was a Homposexual and thereby sympathetic to the Templars who it seems probably were, Castile and Portugal spoke for their innocence.
de Molay was imprisoned for 4 years before being roasted, he had plenty of time to redistribute any money. Most of what was left went to Philip and the Church which was part of Philips bribe to the Pope. templars that survived joined the Hospittalers, or retired to monastries.
The fairy story about the Templar treasure galleys comes 4th hand from someone writing about what someone had said that the nephew of the paris templar Trasurer had said, whic was that "Hugues de Chalon escaped with all of Hughues de Pairaud's treasure.
Fact: there is no record of what happened to templar ships. That is all. it is unhistorical to say because we do not know whathappened to the fleet then it must have gone to scotland and the treasure must be buried at rosslyn because it is an unusual chape.
i think we are in the realms of fantasy Pike.

getting bored Now

I do sympathise with Researcher, er, 246851, and on Rosslyn and the Templars I'm pretty sure he's right. Conspiracy theory authors - I don't mean you, Blatherskite - exploit gaps in the documented historical record to create castles in the air, and I'm not sure that their motives are always beyond reproach. I think Dante would have assigned them an appropriate punishment in the lower circles: perhaps eating the books they sold, as well as the fortunes they earned. Then they would bring it all up and start again... (Dante did place Philip the Fair in his Inferno.)

"The Templars were only persecuted in France and the Papal states." - Wrong.

"Robert Bruce had been excommunicated so ignored thepapal bull" - Right.

"Edward was a Homposexual and thereby sympathetic to the Templars who it seems probably were," - Wrong. If he was so sympathetic, why did he confiscate all their property? Why were they forced to choose between exile, imprisonment, or a monastic life?

"Castile and Portugal spoke for their innocence." - Not that that had anything to do with a war against the Moors... they were in the same position as Robert the Bruce, with a war on their hands and a desperate need for mounted knights.

"de Molay was imprisoned for 4 years before being roasted, he had plenty of time to redistribute any money." - We're talking in a circle here. I'm not concerned about money, I'm concerned about books or scrolls excavated from Jerusalem.

"Fact: there is no record of what happened to templar ships" - So we should stop investigating? Just because there is no record? Answering questions where there are no records is why we do research.

Wotcher,

Can any of you recommend a good book on the Templars?

More on their rise to power, invention of banking, which power structures they threatened / supported, eventual persecution etc. than on Holy Grail-related stuff.

And if any of you jokers recommends the novelisation of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, I ain't going to be amused!

There aren't any good books. Thats the problem. Most books are written by people expounding mad theorys that sell and make them very rich.

what scrolls, who says there were any and what possibly could they say.

Oh dear, i'm sorry to have to cloud the issue with facts, rather than speculation.
When Edward received instructions from the Pope to arrest the Templars, he igbnored it. he had good reason, Edward was a friend of the Templars. Edward and the Templars had fought together against Wallace, and Brian De jay,Enlisg Grand master had died in the English cause.
The Papal Bull arrived in december so Edward Had to act, but not till january, allowing the Templars three weeks to escape.
Most did and went to ground, the english templar treasure amounted to £200.
Edward refused to torture the Templars who were found writing to Clement that "Torture is not part of English Jurisprudence" and that he did not have anyone who knew how to do it.
It took another 3 years for the pope to get nasty and tell Edward to examine his own soul, and that he was sending in the Dominicans to show the English how to do it.
the pope declared the templars excommunicated and if they did not give themselves up, they would be declared Heretics and burned without trial. Still hardly any Templars were unearthed.
The German templars were all found not guilty by a tribunal held by the Archbishop of Metz, after they challenged to mortal combat anyone who doubted their word.
of course the Spaniards were at war, and they thought is most unfortunate that whilst they were actively fighting the heathen, Rome and france were messing about with heresy..
Outside Naples, Sicily, the Papal states and France there was no persecution. Sorry to disillusion you, although I'm sure you will remain illusioned.
In England there were a few tortures whwn the Dominicans arrived but no confessions, probably because The english gave no assistance to the torturers.
The English church finally bargained with the templars They would pardon the templars if they would confess to the sin of a layman (Templar Master) giving absolution at the end of their meetings.
The Templars agreed, were freed and went into monastries, and the Hospitallers. William de la More English Grand master died in prison, was never tortured.
I do believe i Know what is bugging you.The Turin Shroud is one of those incredible hoaxes that some people associate with the Templars. or perhaps i am not thinking again