h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Intro:
This is my reply to the article "Tibet - Why the Chinese are There?"
in my response, i am going to examine the history of Tibet.

If you google the words "Chinese Dynasties Maps", you can see Tibet has continuously been a part of China for over 360 years since the Qing Dynasty ( 1644 - 1911 AD ). Even through The thirteenth Dalai Lama declared Tibet's independence after the downfall of the Qing Dynasty, but the new Chinese Republic did not recognize its existence (in Fact, not many countries did). Meetings were hold between the Tibetan officials and the Central Government to settle this issue, but didn't resolve anything.

In 1949, after the communist's victory in the Civil war, the people's liberation army marched into Tibet. On November 11, 1950, the Tibetan Government protested to the United Nations against the Chinese rule, only El Salvador showed concern to the issue. 1n 1951, The Fourteenth Dalai Lama went to Beijing and signed the 17-point Agreement in which both sides decided to settle dispute peacefully. In the same year, CIA began to finance and train Tibetan rebels to fight the Chinese army.
in 1959, the Fourteenth Dalai Lama fled out of Tibet and formed an exile government.


It is very unclear of what this exile government is seeking. An Independent country or An Autonomy province?
The Dalai Lama is the spiritual leader and the head the exile government
Although he urged to give up Tibet independence, he said he wanted an Autonomy province, but many of his followers wanted An Independent Tibet. so there is definite conflict objectives in this government.

It's fairly easy to put whatever spin you like on history. In my mind, the question is really mute, except to the extent that it may help explain why Tibetans would rather be Tibetan than Chinese. All people have the right to self determination.

To return to the subject of maps: International Campaign for Tibet is selling its "Maps of Tibet" 2008 calendar at a reduced price - it is, after all, March. The Calendar features historical maps of Tibet, one for each month.

Here is a map of Tibet showing the recent flashpoints:

http://www.savetibet.org/images/news/protestsmap2008.jpg

It is interesting, because very many of the recent demonstrations have taken place in areas that now fall within Chinese provinces neighbouring Tibet. This might confuse someone who didn't know about the invasion of Tibet or the annexation of eastern Tibet.

Cited "It's fairly easy to put whatever spin you like on history. In my mind, the question is really mute, except to the extent that it may help explain why Tibetans would rather be Tibetan than Chinese. All people have the right to self determination."

What a lovely "Self determination", LOL,,,please tell Her Majesty of the United Kingdom, the people of Northern Ireland want also a "Self determination", or J. W. Bush, the people of Hawaii also want a "Self determination". Lovely, lovely....

Q:It's fairly easy to put whatever spin you like on history. In my mind, the question is really mute, except to the extent that it may help explain why Tibetans would rather be Tibetan than Chinese. All people have the right to self determination

A:tibetan exiled outside China is about 100000, but here in china we have 6million.
All the people have the right to self determination,that means if you(ONLY YOU,ONE PERSON) want establish a country different with Britain, you can?

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"It's fairly easy to put whatever spin you like on history. In my mind, the question is really mute, except to the extent that it may help explain why Tibetans would rather be Tibetan than Chinese. All people have the right to self determination."
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ok you just advise the American or they could let "Lakota" independence first,alright? ..

You do not seem to grasp the idea that people who support self determination for Tibetans, including myself, also support issues of justice in our own countries. Implicit in your posting is the admission that injustice in Tibet must be addressed. Why not take it upon yourselves to solve this problem instead of blaming people in the West?

Well said John.

John the gardener that is .

>>You do not seem to grasp the idea that people who support self determination for Tibetans, including myself, also support issues of justice in our own countries. <<
we know your determination for spliting China,that's your rihts,we aslo have the rights to safeguard our country'sintegrity.

>>Implicit in your posting is the admission that injustice in Tibet must be addressed. Why not take it upon yourselves to solve this problem instead of blaming people in the West?
<<
yeah,problems must be solved,i agreed with your this point. but the actions of thugs who leaded by Dalai Lama killing the innocent people in Lhasa cann't help solve problems what you said.as we all know some west medias misplaced those informations and news,let lots of western people don't know the truth.we blame those medias who cann't stand a justice and objective way and sympathise with those westerners who misled by those west medias. we just want to tell them the other side what they didn't know.

First of all "The Fourteenth Dalai Lama went to Beijing and signed the 17-point Agreement in which both sides decided to settle dispute peacefully. " The 17-point plan was completely ignored by the Chinese government. Besides affirming Chinese sovereignty over Tibet points 3 through 6 guarantees not only "high autonomy according to PRC Constitution" but also no interference in the political structure or power of the Dalai and Panchen Lama. PRC allowed for the bare minimum autonomy status and severely reduced the influence and power of both Lamas. 2ndly the last paragraph suggests that a majority of his follows desire a free Tibet, which is not entirely correct. In any case, by followers do you mean religiously or politically?

Although your arguments are somewhat flawed I still believe that China must continue its hold on Tibet by any ethical means necessary. To say that Tibet is not closely tied to China is completely false. This is especially in the case of the economic mineral resources of Tibet and the processing, gathering, transporting, marketing, etc. that China provides. This relationship is beneficial for both Tibet and China, though seeing this trickle down to the poor farmers is another case. Without China providing these necesary services, Tibet's economy would fall drastically.

The biggest problem with this whole entire situation is that lack of good public relations and political know-how by the PRC. Bill Clinton can approve the bombing in Yugoslavia that may have killed around 500 refugees, and he can come away with enough sense to quiet the manner.

The Dalai Lam was actually presented with the 17 Point Agreement as a fait accompli. If China actualy lived up to the terms of that agreement life for tibetans and Chinese would be better than it is under the present state of Orwellian repression.

If there was anything ethical about China's occupation of Tibet I might agree with you. But ultimately it should be up to Tibetans to decide. The Dalai Lama has said that there are very good grounds why Tibet should remain a part of China, not least for the potential material advantages of being included as equal participants in Chinese society. Sadly, there is nothing like full participation for Tibetans at the moment and decades of brutality will certainly be hard for the most enlightened tibetan to forgive, regardless of the benefits of being a citizen of China.

The problem is not one of public relations. It is one of basic human decency. Being quiet about tibet has done nothing to help the tibetans. On the contrary, decades of looking the other way has brought them perilously close to oblivion.

>>The Dalai Lam was actually presented with the 17 Point Agreement as a fait accompli. If China actualy lived up to the terms of that agreement life for tibetans and Chinese would be better than it is under the present state of Orwellian repression.<<
you must give us your evidences about "China actualy lived up to the terms ".

>>If there was anything ethical about China's occupation of Tibet I might agree with you. But ultimately it should be up to Tibetans to decide. The Dalai Lama has said that there are very good grounds why Tibet should remain a part of China, not least for the potential material advantages of being included as equal participants in Chinese society. Sadly, there is nothing like full participation for Tibetans at the moment and decades of brutality will certainly be hard for the most enlightened tibetan to forgive, regardless of the benefits of being a citizen of China.<<
you means that Dalai Lama has said Xizang should not be a part of CHina? and again you need show your evidendces about "decades of brutality".

>>The problem is not one of public relations. It is one of basic human decency. Being quiet about tibet has done nothing to help the tibetans. On the contrary, decades of looking the other way has brought them perilously close to oblivion.<<
what do you think is the baxic human decency? no one has kept being quiet and decades ofthose tibetans nobilities looking the way has made them more and more close to terrorists.

1.
you means that Dalai Lama has said Xizang should not be a part of CHina? and again you need show your evidendces about "decades of brutality".
___________________________

What "evidences" are you looking for? The fact that the Tibetan people have risen against the chinese occupiers can not be disputed. If you want your head buried in the sand, it is your choice.

2.
what do you think is the baxic human decency? no one has kept being quiet and decades ofthose tibetans nobilities looking the way has made them more and more close to terrorists.
_____________________________

Ask the millions of chinese in the west about the freedoms they enjoy
and the basic human decency that exists in the west where people are not treated like cattle (or worse) as in china. And don't keep going back centuries when the concepts of human decency were developed.

What matters is today and tomorrow. And in today's world, china is mo more than a schoolyard bully trying to coddle dictatorships, blackmailing, poisoning, conning the west.

If the Tibetans want to be released from the deadly clutches of china, let them have freedom. Britain did not did not hang on to its colonies like India, and today have outstanding relationships with them. There is no reason why china can not have good relations with a FREE TIBET. On the other hand, if china indulges in the rape and pillage of Tibet, it will have a perpetual freedom struggle which can spread to the other disaffected parts outside the "Great" wall of china.

Blackglod, clearly China has not lived up to its promise to give genuine autonomy to the Tibetan people, even in the so-called Tibet Autonomous Region. It has obviously not allowed freedom of religion. And vilifying the Dalai Lama as a wolf in monks robes, and so on, clearly is not in the spirit of "maintaining his status, function and power". As for point 11, "In matters related to various reforms in Tibet, there will be no compulsion on the part of the central authorities. The local government of Tibet should carry out reforms of its own accord, and when the people raise demands for reform; they shall be settled by means of consultation with the leading personal of Tibet"... well, that must have been intended as a joke from the outset.

Here, have a look at this while I have my dinner:

http://china.hrw.org/

>>What "evidences" are you looking for? The fact that the Tibetan people have risen against the chinese occupiers can not be disputed. If you want your head buried in the sand, it is your choice.<<
so you think there was not peaceful protesting in Lhasa and the fact was a uprising against the chinese, are you sure? we also found many tibetans helped the chinese of other races in that riots in Lhasa, do you know this fact? "if you want your head buried in the sand, it is your choice", this sentence more appropriate to you.

>>Ask the millions of chinese in the west about the freedoms they enjoy
and the basic human decency that exists in the west where people are not treated like cattle (or worse) as in china. And don't keep going back centuries when the concepts of human decency were developed. <<
O my god! the western chinese have told us your hypocritical human decency. of course there are many things must be learned from the west world but not what you said the basic human rights. i think basic the more basic rights is survival,not freedom.that is why you western world can easily free killing eath other and free invading the othsr country. that is also understanding why your ancients free killing the hunan beings all of the world.

>>What matters is today and tomorrow. And in today's world, china is mo more than a schoolyard bully trying to coddle dictatorships, blackmailing, poisoning, conning the west.<<

hehe, those were your freedom and some of your basic human rights. haha please contiune to be thinking and making lies. it 's your freedom.

>>If the Tibetans want to be released from the deadly clutches of china, let them have freedom. Britain did not did not hang on to its colonies like India, and today have outstanding relationships with them. There is no reason why china can not have good relations with a FREE TIBET. On the other hand, if china indulges in the rape and pillage of Tibet, it will have a perpetual freedom struggle which can spread to the other disaffected parts outside the "Great" wall of china.<<
hehe, you need know more about the China's history,then you can understand why . according to your information, we cannot keep talking about Xizang issue. if you have a chance to go to China, i believe you will change your minds. Dalai Lama like some western medias just is a liar! they have the rights to say lies and protest.but they have no rights to kill anyone in anywhere.

Blackglod,

If you are so sure of the virtues of china, why in the world do you prevent journalists from around the world from going to Tibet and reporting? And why does the chinese television censor reports, block out western internet sites, force western internet sites in china to censor news?

What is the chinese government afraid of? chinese posters here keep inviting us to visit china, saying it will change "our minds". Do you let tourists roam free in Tibet the same way the chinese are allowed to roam in the west (considering all the recent spying by the chinese, especially in the US) at the peril to US?

It is ludicrous to compare freedoms in china with those in west.

If you think by visiting china and wow-ing at the ancient sites we will cherish the freedoms there I don't know what you are smoking.

In your mind, chinese are the only honest people created by god, the rest of the world consists of liars. You do not provide evidence or counter-arguments, but just keep repeating the lies that you are fed (or forced to repeat like parrots in a cage) by your government. And mocking in the most ridiculous colloquial expressions not worthy of mention in a debate (hehe, haha, and similar stupid expressions).

You need a basic course in English before you can post here. You are butchering our beautiful language the same way you are butchering in Tibet.

Well said majortso

>>If you are so sure of the virtues of china, why in the world do you prevent journalists from around the world from going to Tibet and reporting? And why does the chinese television censor reports, block out western internet sites, force western internet sites in china to censor news? <<
why our government must allow your medias(some western medias) to enter into Xizang, is this land yours? it is not necessary of your medias to enter into Xizang because your medias reported lies.we have the rights to choose who can go to Xizang. so you may ask your media why they block out chinese news and misplace chinese informations. in BBC,here also need censor report, do you know this?

>>What is the chinese government afraid of? chinese posters here keep inviting us to visit china, saying it will change "our minds". Do you let tourists roam free in Tibet the same way the chinese are allowed to roam in the west (considering all the recent spying by the chinese, especially in the US) at the peril to US? <<
chinese government doesn't need to be afraid of anything except chinese people. your point is very strange about free traval in TIbet.what i said is not important but you can try it and back here to tell us what have happened,OK?

>>It is ludicrous to compare freedoms in china with those in west.<<
maybe you feel ludierous, but it is fact we found from this Xizang issue.

>>If you think by visiting china and wow-ing at the ancient sites we will cherish the freedoms there I don't know what you are smoking. <<
of course you will cherish the freedom,you also will promote the freedom system to all over the world, but please don't promote the wars to the other countries that will kill lots of hunan beings.

>>In your mind, chinese are the only honest people created by god, the rest of the world consists of liars. You do not provide evidence or counter-arguments, but just keep repeating the lies that you are fed (or forced to repeat like parrots in a cage) by your government. And mocking in the most ridiculous colloquial expressions not worthy of mention in a debate (hehe, haha, and similar stupid expressions).<<
i'm so sorry,i'm not a christian but a atheist. of course i also feel i am a buddhist because of my parents. i dosen't think thinese is the only honest people, in my mind,every one in the world are equal such as blacks,white and yellows. every races are great.i also stress Dalai Lama and SOME western medias are liars.hehe and haha are used as idions in the netchating,no more meannings. fo course there may be some ridiculed meanings because of some stupid words. if any one feel sad , i will back my words and say sorry to him(her).

>>You need a basic course in English before you can post here. You are butchering our beautiful language the same way you are butchering in Tibet.<<
what you said is very right, i very hate to learn English language but i have no choice to learn other language.but i really thank for learning English language because of i can get the west news and understand what some westerners think. i'm sure i know English not less than yours though i am not very good at English.

>>I am not very good at english<< about the only thing I understood in your ramblings so why don't you just keep it to yourself