A Conversation for A History of Modern and Extinct Celtic Languages

Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 1

Huw B

It is often said that Breton was introduced by Britons running away from the English.
Could it be possible that any migrations from Britain simply boosted the very similar Celtic language that was still spoken in Brittany? Could the British simply have consolidated what was already there and still being lived?


Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 2

Gnomon - time to move on

There is no doubt that when people came from Britain to Brittany, there were already many people living there. But in this case, the language of the invaders/settlers seems to have taken over. There are much closer ties between Breton and Insular Celtic Brythonic, such as Cornish and Welsh, than there are with Continental Celtic, such as Gaulish.

I know that Gaulish died out and Latin took over when the Romans invaded Gaul, but when exactly did this happen? Did the peasants continue to talk Gaulish for many centuries?


Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 3

icarus

I don't think that's what happened though. The gaulish Celtic that was spoken on the mainland Europe (and gave rise to all those mentioned in the original article) was no longer being spoken on the mainland by the time that the Bretons made their voyage to the mainland.

-icarus


Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 4

Huw B

I have read that at least some of the early migrations to Britanny seemed to have little to do with being forced by external pressures (i.e. invaders) and were made by people from areas (notably South Wales) who had a choice to stay. I was intrigued as it implied that there were other reasons for initially making the move.

Sadly, I can't remember any more or where I read this! If I do find it again I'll obviously provide this info.


Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 5

Gnostic Jesus

I've read that the Bretons just reinforced a waning celtic influence that was still existent in Armorica (later to become Brittany/Bretagne, or Little Britain).


Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 6

Gnostic Jesus

Oh, and I've also read that during the time of Charlemagne, since his Frankish Empire wasn't as... oh, I can't think of a word, but maybe pervasive? Anyway, it's thought that under his rule, there were still people in the countryside who spoke Gaulish and maintained the religious and other customs of the early Gauls.


Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 7

U8212697

Gaulsih continued to be spoken in the Auvergne for example until possibly as late as the eleventh century. Like Cumbric in the North-West of England.


Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 8

Gnomon - time to move on

Interesting!smiley - smiley


Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 9

Lucky Llareggub - no more cannibals in our village, we ate the last one yesterday..

Aber (foreshore) as a place name exists in Wales and in the Salzkammergut in Austria (Lake Aber) where the Celts mined salt. In the Celtic Museum in Hallein (an island in the Salzach) there's even a model of an Austrian Celtic Warrior! Maybe the original spoke a kind of Cymraeg?
The word Welsh is an Old English creation and means 'one not of Saxon origin'!


Breton 'invented' in 600 AD?

Post 10

cunuual

Stating that Gaulish was spoken in Auvergne in the 11th century is exagerated, I would say.
What we know anyway:
St Jerome (331-420) says that the Trevires (a Gaulish tribe of the Rhine valley, now in Germany)spoke Gaulish in his time.
Sidonius Appolinarius (430-489) writes to Ecdicius that he knows his correspondent helped members of the nobility from Auvergne to get rid of their Celtic way of speaking.
Venantius Fortunatus and Gregorius of Tours attest that Gaulish was still spoken in the 6th century in rural places.
It is quite possible that, outside Brittany, in remote districts far from the main cities and off the main roads, rural populations have been bilingual (Celtic/Latin)for several centuries with local elites using more Latin than Gaulish and the common language mixing more and more both ingredients to give oïl dialects (in the N part of France) and oc dialects (in the S part of France).


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