h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The words stuff this for a game of ing soldiers comes very readilly to mind. I am LIVID. I am insenced. I could crush a grape? Crush one? Hell I could trample a vatful.

I have just wasted a valuable morning going to a "Get Slim and medically monitored, with plenty of psycological back up and group therapy" type set up. No names, no pointing fingers. It is true I need to lose weight. I am just into the "obese" section of the BMI Index chart (Body Mass Index to those who knew about as much as me this morning). I am a good cuddly armful of woman, but if I let things slide then I know I will cease to be cuddly and simply be fat. It wasn't just the diet that I need - its the support during and especially afterwards that drew me to this particular group.
I need a bit of help and support whilst I get used to the fact that A} I'm no longer fat and B) I'm attractive, and not ugly as I believed the last time I was thinner. Two biggies that I now feel the need to address - I've done all the other sorts of councelling
for "Major" stuff, now to just fill in the details. If I can quit a 25yr smoking habit then weight loss and self image should be a doddle... but I'd like help.

Anyway, I answered the medical questionnaire, I watched the video
and listened to the hows and whys and wherefores. I thought "Yes, I can cope with this"

Then the big question - the cost. £45.00 per week for a minimum of 13 weeks. That buys you a set of meal replacements, and nibbly bars and a 2hr. group councelling session per week.

£45.00 per week!


Say WHAT? I am currently on Income Support - with 2 kids thats £120.00 pw. I have to put aside £60.00 pw for bills, every week
and we have £60.00 between three of us to buy food, fun and clothing.
I am not complaining... perhaps I should, but I'm not. Its a struggle, but we manage. But if I went for this diet - and support group don't forget the support group ladies & gentlemen, then the family budget would be £15.00 for 2 teenager's food per week.

I can make a penny do the work of several, but even I couldn't manage to feed and clothe 2 kids on £15.00 a week.!

I am not disputing that possibly - just possibly, the amount charged is reasonable for the expertise and support this outfit offers. Certainly in terms of self esteem and feeling good and being superhealthy and slender, a permanent weight loss is very valuable, but its like everything else - if its healthy or beneficial then you really do have to be reasenably financially comfortable to afford it.
It comes as no surprise to me that the "poor" are usually a bit suet-y shaped... we fill up on cheap carbohydrates and stodge. Yes, you can tell me till you're blue in the face fruit and veg are cheap - yes, they are, and 5 nights out of seven they're tolerable. They're just dull, is all. I'm sorry, they are. There is only so much enthusiasm I can raise for dill and thyme and lemon juice and chillis and garlic dressings and little slivers of red onion, etc.
If they're mainly what you eat because thats whats within your budget it gets tedious.

So I'm stuck. I'd like to buy a bit of support and alter my woefully inadequate attiude towards healthy food. I know when I truely believe a salad is a treat and a Galaxy Bar is something you can take or leave (as opposed to the vice versa view) I will have
cracked it. I know that when I don't feel the pathetic need to hide my insecurities behind a couple of extra stone, I will have resolved the last real major issue in my life.

But I cannot afford it fiscally speaking.

Now before you tut and say "Get a job", let me tell you that up untill the last 6 months I have worked most of my adult life; just lately I have had an immense amount of problems with my spine - which I have been told would cure with a bit of rest. So I have been relying on my hard won savings to tide us over these last few months. I haven't gone on Disability, firstly because I have a horror of being on the Scrapheap. Once you're on "The dis" you're on for good. You cannot be Disabled one year and not the next, that doesn't make sense. And even if you are allowed to work, you are trapped by so many restrictions it's stulcifying - only so many hours a week, etc etc. Secondly, I have good days and bads days.
And there is no logical rhyme nor reasen to them. I cannot sit for too long, stand for too long or walk around too much one day, the next, I feel I could run a marathon. I do not believe there is a job anywhere that could fit in with my erratic ailments.
Currently I have taken a deep breath and found a marvellous Osteopath who is performing weekly miracles on my back - he is curing a chronic problem that begun when I was 19 and came 2nd whilst riding a horse. Its a long story, but the upshot was I managed to tear most of my backs muscles which cause multipal misalignments. And of course, at 19 you don't have a bad back or pain, so I wasn't taken seriously. Thanks to this practioner, I should be able to get some form of work just in time for The Summer (I live in a tourist town, so there are always loads of waitress/barmaid type jobs through the seasen). I may even be able to try this diet and support group once I've got the budget back on an even keel.

But 13 times £45.00 is £595.00 for a 2 or 3 stone weight loss for one person.

Is it me, or is there some form of rip off going on, honing in on the insecure and overweight?

OK, I admit it, I cannot multiply properly. That should read £585.00, not £595.00.

It still is an awful lot of money.

You're right, it's a con. Don't fall for it.

At the end of the day, weight control is about state of mind, healthy eating and exercise. That's the clincher - exercise, and that can be as pleasant as a stroll in the park each day you're up to it.

Weightwatchers do this points based diet right? You can get the points for foods off of the internet... so, find someone on Weightwatchers who has a similar amount to lose as you, find out how many points they get, and bingo - you're own diet. I bet you can find chat rooms on the internet for support, and your kids are bound to support you too (especially if they realise how important it is to you).

Don't be fooled by the bas***ds who tell you it has to cost a fortune, it's a load of fetid dingo's kidneys.

I lost 2 and a half stone with EDietsUK (www.edietsuk.co.uk). Total cost £35 for 2 months worth of diet sheets, exercise sheets and unlimited access by phone to experts, chat rooms, bulletin boards etc. for support. You know how long it took to lose it? 2 months. I simply cancelled my membership after the trial period telling them I had lost the weight I needed to. I got a congratulations email, and they haven't bothered me since. Lovely company - would recommend them to anyone.

Huggles, don't let the nasty people grind you down honey.

Manical Despot No. 7

Its the state of mind that always banjaxes me - I know I can lose the weight, thats the easy bit, if only the little voice of self sabotage doesn't pop up and say.. what you? Thin? Nah, g'wan, you're having a laugh! I can banish this "voice" (Christ, I sound like Joan of Arc here, do me a favour) from every aspect of my life except from hiding behind the waistline. Once I've lost the barrier I feel totally exposed and vulnerable. Terrified is a better word for it. There I'll be, size 14, a nice, everday sort of looking bod, but to me, I'll look down and the first thing that'll hit me is the fact that my bust looks enormous becasue my waists gone in AND EVERYONE IS LOOKING AT ME AND LAUGHING!!!!
As I write it, I can see the funny side - I mean, of course I've got a bust at the best of times, but its nicely merged into the current shape and doesn't... um... stick out so much. I think this is the worst case senario... I've managed every other one in my life; Christ, I've acted and performed on stage professionally (only the once, but I got paid for it) (Ah! And wouldn't you know I played a

comedy charactor, too) I've always been on public display in my jobs -and when I look impartially, I don't recall a single occaision where my appearance was anything other than accepted as the norm (Oh, once, when I was experimenting in my traineed hippy stage... Welling High Street just wasn't ready for the amount of cheese cloth and turbans I wore. I thought - I STILL think I looked great - just not colourful enough.) Once in 40 odd years of being aware of others. Not bad atall. No, it's fear of ridicule I need to face
head on and get rid of. And if I have to look insecure and frightened then so be it. Its only a transition stage, and the beauty of "here" is, its annonymous. So lets go for it I've signed up with the place you suggested, and I'm giving it a go. If I can't lose weight in annoniminity, then I have no hope of doing it face to face ... I'm wittering. I'm off down to the allotment for a bit of serious gardening.

Look, at least you know what the issue is that you have to deal with, and trust me, on EDiets you will meet a lot of people in not so dissimilar situations to yourself. If you pop into the Support Groups and pick the one called In my Own Time, you'll get to meet lots of ladies who have significant amounts of weight to lose and who are predominately in their 40s or 50s and therefore understand a lot better what it is like to walk a mile in your shoes than someone else might. Personally I miss them all very much, I spoke to someone off the bulletins boards daily (either on the boards, or by email), and not having that support group as close anymore is quite off putting.

Although, I have managed to keep to most of the good habits I learnt, and I am managing (for the first time in my life!) to enjoy exercising. It just took finding some exercise I enjoyed!

Go for it lady - and let me know how you get on, there's nothing like being able to say to someone, I lost 2 lbs this week!

Thank you for the encouragement... talk about serendipity (well, we can talk about it, even if I can't spell it!) I went charity shop mooching and I found a book called the sensuous slimmer, which deals with the issues I'm fighting against - or resolving or whatever. Once I've cracked this terrible fear of ridicule that I feel OK about myself (childhood issues, obviously) then I shall slink happilly down to average size. Exercise is no a problem with me - bear in mind my job as massuesse - I sweat more than the client, believe me, because I do a good hefty massage, not slapp oil all over em and rub it in gently. I also cycle, and run half an allotment as I don't have a garden. And I swim 3 or 4 times a week- especially in the summer as the sea is only 500yds away from my front door. In the winter I just stick to aqua arobics which I find great fun.. especially when the lesson finishes.... my real love is gym and the weights - you can keep the arobic stuff, to hell with your treadmill and exercise bikes. But I haven't been able to
do the gym for a coupla years now due to this bloody bad back.
I'm in fairly good shape under the flab - most of me (except the torso) is solid muscle. I must be one of the few women who doesn't worry if my bum looks big in anything... I don't need to, I know it's all sticking out ahead of me!!! It never occured to me to get the boys to help me, but you're right, of course they will. They were brilliant when I lost the nicotine habit. It sounded really odd to hear anyone say "I'm proud of you" but come to think of it, they both said it.... H'mmm time for a serious think...

Hi Witchone .

Notice that you popped up on Azahar's page and trotted back to your page where I saw your plight .

I may have a cost effective solution for you. A while back I was unemployed and being a little on the chunky-side myself (6'0" and 18 stone) decided to lose weight. I went to my doctor who put me forward for 'Exercise on Prescription'.

This got me a personal trainer, physical health evaluation, a personal exercise plan and twenty sessions at the local leisure centre gym for just £10! He also put me in touch with an NHS dietician who even worked out a proper eating regime for a daft veggie like me.

Net result 3 stone down in 4 months, I can walk the hills without getting too breathless and back to the cuddly shape my wife seesm to like.

Maybe this can help you too?

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Well done you! Thank you for your advise - alas, the GPs in Kent are about as much use as the proverbial tit on a bull re anything as frivolous as weight loss... and to be honest, I know exactly how to
lose weight, I simply hide behind flab because of the "traumas" of childhood - which I have finally - I think - come to terms with. I read your comments and those of the person (whose name escapes me, sorry) you mentioned on another site where a lady has recently got herself sorted re child sexual abuse. Her poem was pretty damned powerful and I was proud to read it and say "Yeah, great, you're OK now. I shall be in touch with them within the next few hours, I hope, once I've found th sites again. Something similar happened with me, only it was my mother who transgressed; if my father had known he would have either killed her or been manipulated by er to disbelieve me. I solved the problem by saying I was far too big and heavy (she always called me a big fat lump) to need any help being dried by her any more... and then I used the bathroom door lock to make damned sure she couldn't get in. So "big" = safe and protected.... so here I am, 13 1/2 stone and 5"5" - not huge, but powerfully built. Not wobbly fat (wobbly fat was another "sin" in our house when I was a kid) butbordering it. And then I came across a photo of myself at age 20, a cracking size 14, 12 inches between the top and bottom measurements (ie, 36 -24 -36) AND I BELIEVED I WAS FAT AND UGLY - because that's what I had been told and I had been beaten and brainwashed into believing it, despite the evidence to the contrary!!!! Now, 25yrs on, I feel safe enough - I think - to go back down to the size I had no trouble maintaining.
If you go through my conversations with Manical Despot in my journal entries you will see I do a fair amount of exercise despite the problems with my spine. But thank you so much for getting in touch and offering a bit of advise and moral support - I do appreciate it
very much. It's also nice to know there are Druids out there - tho' God knows "where" out there is!!! I mixed with quite a lot of Druids in Eire - St Paddy isn't as powerful there anymore and you snakes - bless you - are back in force there. which is great! I shall raise a glass of something to you on Midsummer's Eve.
Blessed Be!

Hi 1 .

The 'exercise on prescription' thing is a national campaign so badger your GP. You know they always cave into persistence . Don't tell them how much exercise you already do, just look lost and go on about how you so much need their professional assistance. Play up the back problem, like I did with my knee, and they'll soon have you on the exercise bike and eating regime .

There ain't no such thing as looking 'fat' or 'ugly' in my experience. Beauty lies behind the eyes, in the spirit. I have a friend who had half his face burnt away as a child. Despite the best that medical science can do he still ain't no oil painting, yet he is much beloved by many and quite a target for the ladies, because he has a warm soul and a generous spirit.

Us druids are everywhere, beavering away quietly in the background, grateful that you witches are taking all the limelight . I'm just one of many from Mid-Wales, though I'm presently working in London during the week and commuting home at weekends. I, unfortunately, will not be drinking at the solstice as I will probably be stewarding at Cor Gawr (Stonehenge), but no matter.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

OK, I'll have a go at looking helpless and lost (although I think a mermaid has more chance of being picked as a can can dancer at the Follies Berger, frankly) at the GPs - and see what transpires. Trouble is, I really hate doing the helpless act - I'd sooner eat slugs that show I'm vulnerable (even when, in this case I'd only be pretending...) Of COURSE beauty is in the eye of the beholder - it's just that I wasn't beholding myself appropriately. Everyone else knws I'm fine, I simply wasn't being as decent to myself as I am to others. It's a nice long learning curve this life. I sometimes wonder what I was previously because I chose to bring in such a lot of karmic stuff this time round. Still, on the plus side I am seldom bored! Since beginning a diet - around 10 days now, I have shed 8 lbs, and I am fairly certain its because I have started to get my mind and attitude in gear as regards appearance and not equating "slim" with powerless and weak. But if I can get some extra help from the Nash I may as well do so.

Have a good week.

Good grief - Welling, bad back since your teens but only recently been forced to admit defeat and stop work, 13 1/2 stone and 5'5"... are you SURE you're not me?

People have been telling me for years to go along to Weight Watchers when they're having one of their free registration promotions, pay £4.75 for the first session, get all the stuff and never go back and I finally got round to doing it (on the basis that crutches help because they support some of the weight so surely losing some of the weight would help...).

It's well worth it.
There must be one near you.

People won't laugh at you if you're slim. They're probably less likely to notice you because you'll look like everyone else.

Tell you what - why not get slim together?

PS: Next time you're travelling west, if you have time to pop into Oxleas Wood, please say hello to Severndroog Castle for me. That castle listened to a lot of my childhood angst

Low fat ?

Aha! Found you - it must be the size thats similar!!!! As well as the warped sense of humour, possibly. Actually, since that rather angst ridden statement, I've buckled down and lost around 10lbs - after doing a lot of soul searching and stocktaking from my childhood - I was sexually abused as a kid and managed to prevent it by using my weight/size as an excuse for not sitting on their lap anymore ("I'm much too big and heavy to do that anymore" sort of thing) so bulk has always equalled safety. And when I did shed weight in my late teens and early twenties... didn't I get raped a couple of days after I'd hit ideal weight! No laughing matter really, knocked me for six. It's just been a series of crap co-incidences throughout my life that whenever I get to a good physical state - ie, glossy hair, waggly tail and a size 14 bod, something ghastly happens - and I know for a fact that I certainly DO NOT put out the wrong signals - this is why I am so very wary of "being thin"
I still have the childhood fear of ridicule -but I'm even getting over that. 45 going on 6yrs old in some ways.

I believe the GPs have finally found a label for "the Back" - Sjogrens Syndrome, which is closely allied to Rhumatoid Arthritus OR Lupus - neither of which is curable, but they ARE controllable - I am undergoing batteries of tests after they've finished cecking me for Bowel Cancer. (It gets worse, doesn't it?)

I know once I'm freed up a bit I can go back to doing the job I love, and have enough energy to do much more exercise, which I enjoyed. Believe it or not.

What's your Back history? I don't like the sound of the crutches - nor of your friends saying you "ought" to lose weight - who are THEY to make such personal suggestions? It's up to you - if the weight is causing you movement hassle, and you want to alter it, then fine, but otherwise.... at most you're only a size 18 which is actually average size for women nowadays.... honest. OK, its between a 16 - 18 which is exactly what I am....

When were you in Welling? Oxlease Woods ring a bell, but can't place them.... I grew up in Belvedere, so the Abbey at Abbey Wood heard a lot of childhood grumbling for me. And the big tree in Franks Park.

Low fat chocolate? Alas, cow's milk allergy! Not to say I don't break out occaisionally into Galaxy or Cadburys I cannot imagine life without chocolate - it really would be too grim to tolerate.

Yes, the size was similar, though you're a tad taller and you're now considerably lighter 'cos I've only lost 4lb.

Oh boy, here we go again - I was raped a few weeks after I'd returned to ideal weight.

It knocks you for six doesn't it! People who haven't been raped can't understand how it stays with you - mine was more than half my lifetime ago and yet the other night I heard a sudden unexpected "BANG!" and my heart tried to leap out of my mouth .

It does get worse. Poor you - you must be experiencing awful symptoms for them to be considering bowel cancer.

They're in the process of doing the blood tests for Lupus at the moment.

Hmm...

"Less common features of Sjögren’s syndrome are:
• Irritation of the nerves in the arms, hands, legs or feet (neuropathy)
• Thyroid gland abnormalities
• Skin rashes
• Memory loss or confusion
• Feeling of numbness or tingling
• Gastrointestinal problems"

Nah - these things are all very similar aren't they? That's why they have so much trouble diagnosing them. (and I've ALWAYS been Confused - it's the Dailysex, er... Dialsexy, er...)

Yes, I believe you enjoyed the exercise. I did too. used to be a long distance runner and a hill walker, not to mention the hockey and the volleyball...

Nononono - it's ok - no-one's been telling me to lose weight (well, apart from Mother and Daughter of course - but what can you expect?) - they've just been suggesting WW when I've moaned about being a beached whale. People are nice (mostly)...

The back problem (Are you sure you're ready for this - it's a loooong story) has been around all my life, but I was one of those unwanted kids so any time I complained it was dismissed out of hand and I learned to just put up with it. In my teens it became bad enough to cause an occasional limp, but that would come and go - in fact I could walk up the road limping with one leg and return half an hour later limping with the other - so it just added fuel to The Family's diagnosis of "Drama Queen" ( Family). The first I had of my own (so to speak) said "congenital defect... last 5 vertebrae too close together... having children was the biggest mistake you could possibly have made... lose as much weight as possible... but not allowed to exercise - no running, cycling, jumping... You can swim..."

"But Doctor I CAN'T swim. I'm scared of water."

So he suggested I go and live in a hot country so I could lie in the sun - but The Family had made sure I was tied firmly to Mother's apron strings by Guilt, Obligation, Gratitude, so I just carried on putting up with it, using a sunbed once a week (ah bliss ) and taking a fan heater to bed with me (much better than a man )

I'd managed to get myself married to a wife-beater (well, I was just recovering from the rape when the miners' strike started and our office started striking one day a week in sympathy, but Mother wouldn't let me join the union so I had to walk in through the picket line and they started getting physical, and he rescued me........) so I had 15 months of being kicked around the room to add to my whole childhood of beatings - it didn't help. (Neither did the weight he forced me to gain).

Then the last two giant children completely destroyed my pelvis and a year after the final one a six-wheel 'bogey' (big iron thing that they use to move laden pallets around - sort of manual forklift) fell on my left shoulder and hip, damaging my neck.

And then there's the arthritis type thingy... which they know I'm not "putting on" (though nowt will convince Mother and Daughter) because my ESR is about 70 , but they can't identify.

The crutches helped a great deal when the sciatica and/or the symphisis pubis pain and hip pain were too bad to let me move but they're not much use these days because the neck has become so bad that I can't actually lean on them . Hence the decision to lose some of the weight. (Half my bodyweight would do )

NEED ...

Gotta and wrest the bedroom curtains from Hubby's vicelike grip so I can wash them before he packs them.

Oh, I meant to say, Incapacity Benefit is like Unemployment Benefit - your entitlement depends on the contributions you've paid for two out of the last three years - but unlike Unemployment Benefit it doesn't cease after 6 months, it's paid indefinitely, as long as you need it - so you ought to claim as soon as you can, even though you won't be better off financially NOW. The rate goes up after 6 months and then again after a year and if you're still entitled to it when you reach pension age (heaven forfend but you never know) you may get a slightly higher pension.

Also, at the moment you're having NI contributions credited because you have children under 16 but as soon as they reach 16 that will stop, unless you're signing on or receiving Incap ben...

(Sorry, you can take the girl out of the benefit office but you can't take the benefit office out of the girl <ouch&gt

Jesus H, and there was I thinking MY life was hard - your "back" story sounds.. (I hate saying this, it's getting quite freaky) so darned similiar it's weird. Not so much the limping, but the shoulders cracking, and oh boy, the phrase dramaqueen... oh yes, very familiar. AND the first wifebeater - mine was a ghastly little Customs and Excise Man who thought it was fun to put one of my cats into the twintub because I'd done something or said something (can't remember wich now, it was years ago) to upset or offend him. I left him the day of the Hyde Park Bombing (remember Sefton the Horse?) He had the NERVE to critisize my driving, so I reversed over his toes and broke them (I was aiming to run him over, but I always have been a lousy aim), packed my clothes and records and tranquilized the cat, but them all in the back of the car and drove right through London and the Police Cordons from Uxbridge back to EastHam, to the house we were selling. Cor, those were the days!
That was when I decided that no sinner was ever EVER going to manipulate me through guilt/obligation/ETC - I haven't looked back, but I've had a chequered career.

No, the "bowelcancer" is one sadistic and thorough GPs efficiency.
I needed a check up in the botty dept just to ensure that a minor op
I'd had 18mths previous (a fistula) had healed OK - I was LOOKED at a week and a half ago, and the following day got a call up[ for a colonoscopy this Monday. The guts have been sluggish but managable
-but I think it's all tied up with this Sjogren's Syndrome THEY'RE the symptoms that are so difficult to cope with, especially the fatigue and mental confusion - I put it down to "my age", plus the fact that I never have been very good at paperwork and adult stuff like finances and pensions (They're for other people!) but I do have days when trying to do anything other than the basics like wash-dress-housewife- is bloody hard work.

The bit about the benefits was very helpful, thanks. How do I go about claiming Disability? I know for a fact that there is no way I could be taken seriously as a full time worker, I'd be dead within a week. Young Lochinvar turns 16 in 4 weeks time, so I'd better get my finger out and meander to the appropriate Gvnt Office I guess.

It's 1.30am for God's sake - curse insomnia. Time for a cuppa and a spirited attempt at getting back to kip. Catch U Later

Just rushing through...

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/lifeevent/benefits/incapacity_benefit.htm

Under the heading "How do I claim?" It gives you the phone number of the Benefit Enquiry Line. Thay're brilliant. It was someone there who told me you can have it backdated for up to 3 months, provided you get a form from your . (Having it backdated makes a difference, because the rate rises by £10 after 6 months and a further £7 or £8 after a year.)

Even with the addition for children you're likely to still be below the Income Support threshold at the moment but at least you'll be able to get it, without having to sign on, for as long as you're ill, even after both boys reach 16 (unlike the Income Support).

They sent a of their own to see me and then said I needn't bother sending in any more sicknotes - they'll carry on paying me as long as I just die quietly...

Good luck! I hope the Benefit Office at Welling have improved in the last 22 years. (They didn't even tell me I could claim Supplementary Benefit - the 4 of us lived on the Child Benefit for 6 weeks after my first husband left )

Just reread post 4. I was thinking the first thing that will go will be my bust and people will start calling me "Sonny" again (though I'm a bit older now - perhaps "Sir"?)

Reminded me of summat that rather amused me the other day (Little things please little minds you know...). I picked up my daughter and her babes first thing in the morning to take them into town to shop and, since it was very hot, she threw on a t-shirt with a fairly low neckline. She thought it would be OK since she's doesn't actually HAVE a bust at the moment () but she told me afterwards that the "old" (to her - normal to me ) guy in the photographic printers' spent all the time she was there with his eyes glued to her non-existent cleavage.

Men!

Ah yes... boobs - too much or too little, but never just right. I would kill not to have such.. erm... obvious assets. I look down and all I can see is a cleavage - it's not my belly that prevents me from seeing my feet, trust me!

How many kids have you got, and what age range? 42 and..a nan (granny? grandma?)? My two angels (hah) are 16 in July and 15 in October. One's built like his mother - generously, and the youngest is a muscular toast rack. Both are horrendously street wise - the youngest is a trainee DelBoy.. I worry about the eldest, as I sometimes wonder if he's Trigger's alterego! Both great kids though.

HI again ,do you use garlic a lot that helps in loseing the pounds also sulpher tablets have long been over looked in medicinal uses,also talk to some of the old dears in the resteraunt where you work find out what they did , comeing back to main reason for reply whilswt browseing through site came acrossed old conversation about cats, some cats are perfectly happy and content in flats if you visit link here http://groups.msn.com/hannahshomefreinds many of these cats are liveing in flats/houses never haveing been out ,hannah my cat being one allthough she has been out with me on a lead or taken to fetes funfairs ect that is because i have had her since birth and i use to take her to many places as a kitten so growing up like that she knows no different ,also cats like us all have different personalities so a shy insicure cat is at its best when a house cat also this day and age with there being 100 cats in a area that in the wild one or two cats would have a teritory most cats never go out of there garden other than to defocate "shit" as programed to do so by nature "hunter prey" had they shit in own garden it both warns potential prey of prescence and entices other cats "procreation &defence of area" so most back gardens being size of postage stamp ergo some house cats will have just as much area as a cat say liveing in a city like london catch u later try contacting you local cats protection league maybe try fostering some to see what i mean also might help fred and barney prob