h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I have two son - lets call them Fred and Barney for the sake of names. Fred is 16, with an inclination to be cuddly - not fat, altho if he doesn't watch it he eventually will be more than a cuddly adult. He is quiet, sensative, passive, defensive, caring and generally a really nice kid - BUT he has no drive, no ambition and bless him, a decent all rounder but to date, hasn't found his special talent that gives him the "feel good" factor in life. By his own admission he comfort eats, and his idea of exercise is two widths of the local pool or getting up to change channels on the Cyclops in the corner instead of using the zapper.

Barney, who is 15, on the other hand, is built like a muscular toast rack, is sickeningly good at everything at school - art, science, sport, the lot. He has always been into "The body" and posesses an embryo "drop dead gorgeous" physique and once he grows to over 5 foot in height, I imagine the girls will REALLY begin to notice him.
He is outwardly confident, going on 45 in streetwise and cynisism
and has enough drive and ambition to convince me he'll either be a bankmanager or supervillian within the next 5 years.

Now, Barney loves his older brother very much, and is concerned and frustrated - as am I, that Fred is getting podgier and more inert and depressed. Now, I've taken the softly softly approach, using praise and encouragement and gentling him him into coming swimming with me and getting him to teach me backstroke, etc, but Barney, who
is even more blunt than his old lady has been tormenting Fred into doing more exercise, not eating anything between meals etc etc etc.
Barney runs on logic, intellect and sheer nastiness in his arguments
- it must be from his dad's side, I have only just got the hang of logic and vague intellectual stuff, and I'm too hotheaded to be calculatingly nasty. The upshot is that Fred now hates Barney and has gone back several steps and is threatening to kill his sibling, or failing that, he will starve himself to death to make Barney feel guilty. Whilst I won't take either threat seriously, I can see we are still going through a load of teenage angst the poor lad, despite sterling efforts is still depressed and, for want of a better similie, a trainee Marvin. We've tried councelling (a failiure - after 6 weeks it was established he had a poor self image - and the councelling on our NHS only comes in 6 weekly installments) Positive reinforcement and a lot of support - I'm a single mum and the only thing I haven't been able to offer the lads is a father figure substitute. I can deal with Barney's misguided bluntness - I have a good relationship with both my sons, we're very lucky there, but I am slowly coming to the end of my tether with Freds negative outlook
He has been like it virtually from day one, but like young Barney, I'd love to see my older son enjoy life instead of finding it all too, too, much.

Ideas, anyone? By the way, please don't anyone suggest any "alternative" stuff - I'm an Complimentary Therapist myself, and I've had a lot of help and support from various colleagues from various disciplines- if Dr Bach had shares, then I'd have made him a fortune, Ok ? What I'm looking for is a "Male Mode" type argument/reasoning, rather than treating the lad as an invalid. He refuses to go the GP for help (which frankly, I cannot blame him for, as the idea of a 16 yr old on anti depressants is abhorrant to me, too) Something motivational, something he can relate to, and something that he can hold on to and believe in so firmly that anything young Barney says will not stop him wanting to do it. I KNOW the problem stems from the 2nd son being the whizz kid, and not the older son, but I cannot change genetics or the facts of life.

My god babes, and I thought I had pain with the one kid at 4!!

Okay, suggestions on how to help 'Fred' & 'Barney'.

From the sounds of it the elder sibling has always tended to be quieter, slightly plump and doesn't have any motivation in life (sounds a little like my partner to be totally honest, the only thing he's ever really got into are computer and roleplaying games - neither of which is an aerobic exercise).

My response to your problem is two-fold. Tell the younger sibling in no uncertain terms that if he doesn't pull his neck in, he'll get it snapped off. He thinks he's helping - you know he isn't, you need to tell him.

For the older boy, encourage any activity where he is likely to meet a girl he likes, this, above all else will encourage him to want to change his eating habits. Sounds a bit backwards, in that he'll need some confidence to go out and do stuff where he might meet a girl, but honestly it was the only thing that helped my little brother (who was cronically dyslexic, told insessently at school he was thick - cos I was bright - and therefore believed it.)

Otherwise on the arguement front - just don't have them. Don't buy foods in that he can snack on and do himself harm. If there ain't chocolate in the house he can't eat it in the middle of the night. Admittedly he might then go out and buy and binge himself - but hopefully you know where he is a least part of the time. (I am aware of teenagers, in fact I was one myself, that disappear from the face of the earth once they leave the family home)

If you can talk to him about it, then perhaps the tack could be to vent the frustration being built up, tell him to let it out. Then ask him how he wants to move it forward, chances are he's thought about it himself, but isn't confident enough to simply say "This is what I want to do about things".

I understand your feelings about anti-depressants and teenagers, however, if he really is clincally depressed, rather than just 'mighty fed up' (which is par for the course for being a teenager) then it may be the only solution that works. I speak here as a 28 year old with a history of clinical depression which began at the age of 14. I didn't get medication until I was 23, by which point I had tried to kill myself 4 times. I wouldn't wish that level of desperation on another living soul.

Let me know if any of this helps, or if you want to discuss it further, give me a shout.

Thanks for the moral support - I must admit when I asked you to read my journal I was feeling really down. You've read the situation very accurately, and trust me, Barney got a stiff talking to this morning (once he was up and sentient, and is very clear about his roles and "helping mum" etc. The point about snacking food is very well taken too - it'll put Barney's nose out of joint rather than Freds, because on occaision he is too inert to GET UP (ie, off the couch!!!) and nibble. It might also help me in my never ending quest to shed poundage, too.

What particually interested me is the fact that your brother was dyslexic... so's Fred to a certain degree . Not bad enough to be professionally helped, but bad enough to impede academic progress as regards writing. Girls, I'm glad to say he has little problem with and he has a number of Girl Friends, as opposed to "girlfriends". So far, they are all attracted to his mind rather than his pulling potential, because, as I've said, he's a really nice lad. He's smitten with one lass, but not to the extent that he'd alter the habits of a life time - too much comment from mum here over the years I think, with philosophies like "Beauty is INSIDE" etc etc etc.

The other thing that I would like to understand - if its not prying too much - is the difference between 'ordinary' depression and 'clinical' depression... Fred has tried to top himself twice at least - once at age 6. I have asked for medical help, and experts help but I obviously don't ask the right sort of questions or at the right times. Is clinical depression hereditary, or is it social /environmental? I tend to have bouts of "depression" - can feel myself beginning to fall right now, but it could be simply social (the new S.O. I had rather high hopes of has decided I'm not quite what he had in mind - and besides, his wife won't let him play any more. Honestly, I do pick'em!!! All joking aside, it was a mighty kick in the crotch for me, but on the plus side, the lads weren't aware of his existence, so theres no trauma for them there. I seldom find a "boyfriend" - silly term when I'm 45, but when and if I do, I won't introduce "Him" to the lads until I'm very sure of the state of play. So far, they've met one in the course of the 14 years we've been on our own). Where was I? Oh yes, depression. As I was saying, I do tend to get bouts of feeling "Oh God, whats the point?" perhaps two or three times a year. If it lasts for more than 6 consecutive days then I start shouting for help - talking it over with friends, confronting whatever it is thats brassing me off, and today - for the first time, Internetting it about to get new perspectives. I would like to get an idea of whether Fred's inertia and depression is herediary - in which case we can make it a joint venture to "improve", or whether its just something we can help him get through. Sorry if I've rabbited too much or overwhelmed U with too much information, but I cannot see the point of telling half a story when you've had the decency to have a think for me and offer ideas. I really appreciate it.

Is depression heriditary... well that's the 64 thousand dollar question honey, and depending on which 'expert' you ask the answer is yes, or no.

For a real definition of 'clinical depression' I would go to the British Psychological Society website, they have LOADs of useful bits and pieces there. But the definition I use is this: If a clinician (not a GP, but a psychiatric nurse, psychologist or psychiatrist) thinks you are depressed, and actually uses that term, then it is clinical depression. They don't say depressed unless they really mean it.

For me (I am bipolar - manic depressive), the only way out of it was to change my lifestyle and to begin meditation and stuff. I used meds (and sometimes think I will always end up going to them sometimes) when I need them, but I am not on them 24 / 7. However, I have been examined by 3 psychiatrists, and 1 thinks I am bipolar, 1 thinks I am hysterical (in the clinical sense, means I am over sensitive) and the last one didn't even ask me a question - just said "suicide attempts are all about attention, that's all you wanted, well you got it" so he was a BIG help.

From the sounds of it Fred is slightly picking up on your food habits, if you snack and tend to eat stuff that is bad for you. It may be as simple as 'relearning' what to end when you need to pick. I tend to have sultanas as a snack food for example (rather than what I really want, which is a Mars Bar). I have just stopped formally 'dieting' having lost a stone and a half using a system called EDiets which is internet-based, and recommends healthy eating plus exercise. Lost the weight in 2 months. Been trying to lose the weight for 2 years!

I could tell you were really frustrated when I read your post, which is why I dashed across to your space to see if I could help. Don't forget I have an email address (which I regularly check) on my space, if you want to talk privately.

Good job on ticking off Barney - probably felt horrible, but is only way to stop the 'tough love' thing he's trying to do. Probably a factor of his age, and the fact that he sees other people trying similiar methods on him when he a) hasn't done his homework b) is annoying them.... (the sorts of people I am thinking of here are teachers and other kids at school). It's hard when he's trying to help to tell him the method he is using is wrong, but you can't be ambiguous about it, otherwise he will get really confused. Plus the tension levels in your house will go mental (which let's face it, who needs?)

The dyslexic thing is probably a contributing factor, kids that can't so something that it seems everyone else can do (catch a ball, write neatly, ride a bike) get really demoralised, and frankly, if the teaching staff at their school aren't on the ball, they make it worse. In my brother's case it was the teachers that were calling him stupid and lazy, NOT the other kids bullying him. Strange that he eventually just sat at the back of the class and decided to do nothing at all... well not really!

It's clear from what you say that self-confidence is Fred's main problem, and that everything else stems from it. That actually might make it easier to deal with. Giving him responsibilities that are actually important (obviously little stuff at first and build up) which he succeeds at will build self-confidence. The trouble with low self-esteem is that it creates self-fulfilling prophecy. "I'm rubbish at X and will always fail at it" means that when attempting X it is seen as too difficult, badly attempted and then failed at. However, if the mind set can be brought back to "I'll give it a go and see how it pans out" then successes create the opportunity to reinforce confidence.

My younger brother is now 25. He left school at 16 and between 16 and 24 he never kept a job longer than 1 month. He always got fired, he failed. However, he is now working in the same job he's had for a year, and he's the top salesman in the store he works in. He's like a dog with two tails. He decided when he applied for it just to see how it went, like he said "they can only fire me", that mindset really helped him. It was rough at the beginning, and he nearly quit when it got scary, but he rode it out and it's starting to reap rewards. Fred needs something analagous to prove to him that when he approaches things positively, positive things happen. Thinking positively about yourself (much like anything else) gets easier with practise. Fred hasn't had much, so he's going to find it hard to begin with. You sound like a very supportive and nurturing parent, that's all he really needs.

Many thanks for giving me a rough idea of "clinical depression" - trust me, I have no problems with "tough love" - the lads father was alcoholic, so there isn't much ANYONE can tell me about being tough and loving in a detatched fashion!!! I only feel rottern about myself if I DON'T do tough love when its needed. Hence remonstrating with Barney and not lying down and letting Fred be depressed without doing all I can to help him stop on his own terms. The point about snacking, etc is again well taken - I watch what I eat, but alas, I watch myself eating all sorts of stuff! Savoury stuff is my downfall - you can keep chocolate, gimee Bombay Mix! Actually, if you crave chocolate, have you considered a Lecithin supplement? It contains the same chemical that chocolate makes us crave for but doesn't have the calories. I get chocolate cravings around period time - which is the only reliable indicator I have nowadays of when I'm due. Maybe its time for another course f Lecithin - not sure which vitamin group they belong to, but I know they work. They are definately anti oxidents, so they help the circulation, too. Back to Fred. Yes, most of it DOES stem from lack of confidence and I have done the Tasks bit, but if I'm honest,
the stuff he CAN do is elementary, and he reneges on anything that takes the slightest bit of effort. He "Can't be bothered" - and as you so rightly say, fear of failiure is a self fulfilling prophecy.
I really have tried all the basic stuff and most of the basic psycological manoevers . We don't argue - well, nothing serious or
outrageous, I try hard not to nag (having been nagged and wittered at by my mum I vowed I'd sooner eat slugs than be like her) (Hey! Maybe thats why I snack too much, now!!!!) and I do my utmost to be a reasonably supportive mum. If its possible to be mates with your kids, then I have two young friends most of the time, as opposed "sons". I'm Alpha in the household, but thats simply because I'm older and - so far - the wisest one here. I think I'll just have to grit my teeth with young Fred and take comfort from the story of your brother - it all worked out OK with him, and with luck and a prevailing wind he will alter his life style in his own time and on his own terms (Fred, I mean, not your brother - by the sound of it Bru. has done good) Its just a bit hard sometimes to watch him
be so unhappy and hopeless. Ah well, tomorrows another day.
I'll check your site for your email and keep in touch. Good to meet you, and thanks

No problems, always here to listen, suggest and maybe just talk b**locks with

I know what you mean about it being hard to watch someone you care about going nowhere, even if you do know it works out in the end for most people, it's no consolation at all.

I'm at a loss now though, you've tried all of the things I would have tried (sounds like you're the sort of mum I want to become, so good to know my role model's available at the other end of the modem cable!) I could try casting a spell for him (I am a witch also), to attempt to send him fortifying feelings if you like? Being as it is Beltane today it would be a shame to waste the night on a ritual for myself when it could be doing some use for someone else

Let me know if you want me to, don't fret if you don't - I don't take offense easily (I find gates fit under my arms more easily!)

Huggles

Good gods I forgot its Beltaine - what class of a pagan am I? If you'd like to do a spell, then please feel free. I can return the compliment when you feel the need - its so much easier to "do" for people other than oneself, isn't it!!!

"Good mother""Role model" good heavens - I'm amazed and flattered and slightly gobsmacked. I think the trick is to do what the KID needs rather than to do what little witchone or little Manic Despot might have needed when THEY were little. I think thats where a lot of people fall down. Not that I know for certain, but it all comes down to ego and crap like that. I'd be glad to talk with you any time you like - its good to talk. Only "spell" if theres no need in your immediate circle of family and friends though. Speak to you soon. Blessed be

I actually have a someone else to send fortification to tonight, in the space of a week one of her cats has died, the other has had an operation and her best friend was taken into hospital with severe fitting due to epilpsy. So I can cast as easily for two as one

Talk to you soon.

Hi!
My teenager once asked me to give her a break and to stop helping and worrying.
By my mind there is a lot to worry about and of course I'd like to solve or at least help to solve her problems. She is not depressive, I am.

anti depressents are not the answer all they do in one way or the other is hide or mask the problem/or whatever tag you want to put on reason for cure/change.the time to worrys is after ten or twenty years of "structered" behaviour traits we all have to find our own way of intergrateing within the bounds and constraints that will enhance our time within the plain of existence we find ourselfs you just have to let him find his own way of expressing his personality/self image dont forget "yin""yan" he will in time find his own way to share space withoutthe need to put up barriers/ect after all he has only had a third of the life exsperences you have had compare his reactione with his brother at 2 years old and 5-7 11-13 you may find their roles in your family group where reversed

Alas, although your theory of reactions at varying stages of life is interesting, it doesn't hold water with my two - Barney (despite being 15mths younger) has so far always been the "older of the two.

Tho, as you say, Fred will eventually sort his own place in the planet out. It's just that sometimes watching the poor little sod foul up and be so despartely unhappy really does hurt me. I KNOW the only way for the lads to learn is for them to make their own mistakes and find their own solutions, but hell, watching them do it is sometimes vaguely short of agonising. I know it'll all work out OK in the end, but sometimes its just handy to have a bit of a rant.