h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I watched that Question Time program last night about Terrorism and British security. It very interesting but one thing really irritated me. And that was the way that the audience seemed to continually justify the murder of innocent British people with the Iraq war. I remember one British man stating that Britain has now paid the price for the Iraq war. I have to ask, what side are these people on? There is no excuse for the cold-blooded murder and I resent any ideas that we can justify it. Otherwise, we might as well just give in to these terrorists.

One reason behind this, I believe, is the lack of patriotism within British people. We should be proud of our country and what we stand for. We used to rule the world and now we refuse to be even slightly proud of our country. And this gives terrorists a soap box and justification, as well as breeding traitors within our own country.

And we should remember that these acts of terrorism go beyond the war in Iraq. They have attacked the West before the war and would have done it even if we had never went to war. The simple fact is, they hate our country, believing it to be filled with Christians, Jews and Zionists. They hate the freedom in our country and would like nothing better than to create a fully-blown theocracy where non-(fundamentalist) Muslims are treated worse than animals.

So the next time anyway is tempted to justify the London Bombing with the war in Iraq, remember that.

I just read your top post, GoodNews.

One way I like to test for logic in an argument is to read it backwards, and follow the logic in the opposite direction to see how much sense it makes.

I offer this as a helpful suggestion to help you be able to spot when you are writing tripe.

The wean.

'I offer this as a helpful suggestion to help you be able to spot when you are writing tripe.'

And what tripe have I wrote? Do you think those terrorists were justifed in their actions because that is the only thing you really can be saying when you disagreed with what I wrote.

Perhaps you would like to tell me why it is 'tripe'? Or are you just following me about, attacking whatever I say just to get silly little revenge.

Pathetic really.

Follow the logic.

Pay attention.

The drivel is writ large.

I'm trying to help, but you are going to have to do some of the work. Please don't say it's pathetic - that implies that you are not interested in improving.

The wean.

Hi GN

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Seldom has so much wisdom been distilled into a single phrase.

I do not believe that anyone is justified in using violence except in immediate self-defence.

I too watched the programme last night and saw a sometimes intelligent debate where the panel were, with two exceptions, whining, vengeful conservatives. The exceptions were Sir Ian Blair, Metropolitan Police Commissioner, whose men have to pick up the pieces of our disastrous foreign policy, and Sami Chakrabhati - Director of Liberty - who brought much needed sanity to it all.

All this eye for an eye nonsense was shown for what it was - the only response of the small-minded and vicious. It had no relationship to any understanding of justice whatsoever.

If we are to defeat terrorism we must understand the true causes and do our best to address them. Otherwise all our actions achieve is to heap more fuel and pain onto the fire.

I am surprised that so many christian voices have not been raised in love and forgiveness, as you would expect followers of the man Jesus to do.

Instead I hear calls to 'patriotism'. What is patriotism on a small blue planet but a suicidal urge?

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

Citizen of the world.

Matholwch

There is nothing wrong with Patrioism. It brings people in a country together under one goal and helps stops divisions in that country. It is only a problem when it leads to nationalism.

However, you say this:

'If we are to defeat terrorism we must understand the true causes and do our best to address them.'

The simple fact is, these Islamic extremists hate the West and our values. They hate it. Some of them use the Iraq war as an excuse but these attacks have being going on before that. The only way we can negotiate with these radicals is if we give up everything that Britian stands for-democracy, freedom of speach(?)etc etc and we will never do that. And as long as we never do that, they will still attack us.

But the panel made a very interesting point. These terrorists were born in this country from immigrants. And they feel isolated because they feel neither British nor have been the country in which their family culture is wrapped in. The solution to this is to promote Patrioism. This would give these second generation immigrants an identity and a culture. They would no longer hate the British because they would feel part of the British culture. And that, I believe, is one way we can stop terrorism.

Listen:

offering an explanation for a person's action is neither excusing that action nor justifying that action. It is offering an explanation. I'm sick of bigotted assholes jumping on people who are trying to understand terrorist attacks. I'm sick of bigotted assholes jumping on patriotic people with screams of 'you're justifying terrorism! you're excusing terrorism!'

Listen Good News:

If I suggest that maybe you make these stupid comments because you seem to be young, inexperienced, and you are being led by devil-worshipers with a sick need for disciples, am I saying that your comments are justified? Am I excusing you? Am I saying that you are not responsible for your comments?

Of course not.

'The simple fact is, these Islamic extremists hate the West and our values. '

Actually, no, they don't. They aren't impressed with the foriegn policies of a number of western governments, but they actually like a lot of stuff from the west. On the other hand, you and your masters have a very clearly (considering the rabid froth) hatred of absolutely everything about western values.

"...the way that the audience seemed to continually justify the murder of innocent British people with the Iraq war."

Good news, you are a good friend of mine. I have known you for a long time. During this time I have learnt that you don't support murder in any way shape or form. Now, you seem to be implying that the war in Iraq is justified while the death of a few British citizens isn't. Did you know that A BRITISH study shows that approximately an extra 100,000 innocent civilians have died as a direct and indirect cause of the war in Iraq? Here is a link to prove my statement. Keep in mind that it is written by a British company. I made sure of that because you seem to be so "Patriotic." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

"One reason behind this, I believe, is the lack of patriotism within British people. We should be proud of our country and what we stand for. We used to rule the world and now we refuse to be even slightly proud of our country."

Ok, you know what, as you know I live in America. When people ask me where I am from I PROUDLY reply either Scotland or Great Britain. What does that say? I love my country....my home. This place is the greatest place in the world and I am so damn proud to be from this great nation. Now, keeping that in mind, I also think that the "Islamic Extremists" are not in the wrong. Sure, they are not doing any good by killing people here but hell, neither are we. Do you think that those people in Iraq deserved to die? NO! How about the people in London? The answer is obvioulsy a no. So lack of patriotism isn't the cause of anything. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The chain is never ending, it has and will continue to go on for ever. That is why peace is never acheivable, because people are too full of fury and demand revenge. So, what I am trying to say is, what our nation does is what gets us bombed. Hell, we had it coming to us.

"And we should remember that these acts of terrorism go beyond the war in Iraq. They have attacked the West before the war and would have done it even if we had never went to war."

Yes, they have attacked the west before......BUT WE HAVE ATTACKED THE EAST TOO!!!!! That is what I was saying in the above paragraph. It is a never ending cycle. Truth is we'll never know who started it all cause it goes back so damn far! Again, Every action has an equal and opposite reaction........learn that. In many of the things that you say you are very two-faced. You really need to put your feet into the others shoes.

'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The chain is never ending, it has and will continue to go on for ever.'

Actually, there is a very simple way to end it. Something that a number of 'athiests' have proposed somewhere around here if I remember correctly:

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_gospels/jesuss_teachings/mt05_38-39.html

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_gospels/jesuss_teachings/mt05_39a.html

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_gospels/jesuss_teachings/mt05_39b.html

(Seems like it should be obvious on a thread such as this one.)

"'You have heard how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked."

Your first website that you gave me had this quote. This is true. In fact, if the world would abide by this then of course there would be peace. Yet after the thousands of years (I beleive in Evolution) that humans have existed, they have NEVER acheived this. What makes you think they ever will? Sure some wise words that Jesus said are true but they unacheivable. An example would be, If I killed your family, you'd want your revenge and vice versa. C'mon man. Think about it before you post something so ridiculous.

"On the contrary, if someone hits you on your right cheek. Offer him the other as well."

Not only is jesus saying something that is a paradox he is promoting violence. He seems to be saying in the first to not fight back. Then in the second two links you have given me he is saying to fight back. Not only are you a troll for giving me to sites that cross eachother out but it seems that jesus may have been a troll for saying that. He seems almost two-faced.

Palestinianlover

Those quotes are from the Sermon on the Mount. At first, it appears that Christians should allow people to beat them up but that is not correct. If you look at Matthew 5:39,40, you would see it talks about being sued in the same way. That must mean you have done somethign wrong. The Bible is saying that we should settle issues out of court. If we have wronged a person, we should make it up to them without being forced to by the courts.

These verses are saying that if we have wronged a person, we should make it up to them without being forced to by court.

'An example would be, If I killed your family, you'd want your revenge and vice versa. C'mon man. Think about it before you post something so ridiculous.'

Christians have resisted before. When you become a Christian, the power of Christ is within you and He can do great things. Christ forgave us for our sins and so we should forgive others. That is not to say that justice should not be done. You should have the murderer put in prison by the courts. But you should not seek revenge. If everybody does that, the world will be anarchy.

And you have to answer my Israel post under 'welcome'.

GN said: "If we have wronged a person, we should make it up to them without being forced to by the courts."

Is that meant to be postmodernism?

The wean.

This is really funny! I'm called a Troll for posting the words of Christ to a Christian's thread and then Christ is called a Troll for uttering His words. And then one of the Christians reinterprets Christ's rescinding of the 'eye for an eye' law to suggest that what Christ meant by turn the other cheek was actually an eye for an eye (out of court).

Satan is an overachiever with these two?

'And then one of the Christians reinterprets Christ's rescinding of the 'eye for an eye' law to suggest that what Christ meant by turn the other cheek was actually an eye for an eye (out of court).'

Well that is partly it. But you should also understand the Jewish context.

Have a look at that. You will have to go about half way down the page though.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithg01.html#lk627

If you understand it properly this passage does not mean you have to allow people to trample over you. I hardly think Jesus wants Christians to get beaten twice as bad.

Palestinianlover

I did not say the death of Iraqi’s was justified. But there is a huge difference between the invasion of Iraq and the London bombing. And in the Iraq invasion, civilians did die but it was not intentional (unless they started shooting at our troops). In the London bombing, innocent civilians were the target. Iraq has also made things difficult for them. If they had just stopped attacking our soldiers, we would have left by now and they would have their own democratic Government. And besides, even if the two were unjustified, I’ll side with my country first.

‘Now, keeping that in mind, I also think that the "Islamic Extremists" are not in the wrong.’

You don’t think killing children is in the wrong? You don’t think targeting young people and teaching them to be suicide killers is wrong? Why doesn’t Osama Bin Ladin kill himself? Why didn’t that hook-handed, one-eyed preacher fight a Jihad against the UK? It is simple. They both enjoy their lives too much. So they get young, poor people who are dissatisfied with their life and the UK and they train them to kill themselves and innocent people. Too me that is wrong and I cannot see why you think otherwise.
I also think it is wrong to attack a country after it has taken you on, looked after you and made sure you health care, education, housing etc. That is gratitude for you…

Now I did not say that the UK and America are right in everything they do. But there is a huge difference between that war and the London bombing. And people should remember that before they start trying to excuse murderers.

Thanks for the link, Good News. I find it absolutely supports my suggestion of applying Christ's words to the world's cycle of violence. As well, your suggestion and the suggestion of your link makes Christ's words even more reasonable applicable to the real world. Those who resort to violence and revenge without trying to understand the percieved grievance are not applying Christ's precept.

'Those who resort to violence and revenge without trying to understand the percieved grievance are not applying Christ's precept.'

Justice is not revenge. Revenge would be if I found the terrorists and killed them. Justice would be if the courts gave them a fair trial and then, if guilty, handed out their punishment.

You are again referring to the Iraq war and this is why these bombings occured. I don't think that is true or backed up with evidence. The Iraq war gave these terrorists a cover-up excuse (which have put them into a better position with the British people) but these attacks have occured before the Iraq war and they probably would have happened even if we had not gone to war. They use are foreign policy as an excuse to bomb us. But the real reason is they hate the West. They want to make the whole world into an Islamic theocracy.

Even if we did withdraw from Iraq and hand all of Israel over to them they would simply find another problem with us and continue to attack us until we are under their rule.

Actually, no. I wasn't referring to the Iraq war. I wasn't referring to anything specific. For all you or I know, these bombers may have been pissed off at their parents. Falling back on the lazy suggestion of 'It's Iraq' or the monumentally lazy and contrary to all evidence suggestion of 'they hate the west' [the second bunch apparently were very fond of cigarettes and whiskey and wild, wild women] is not justice, and it's certainly not the moral high ground.

"Justice is not revenge. Revenge would be if I found the terrorists and killed them. Justice would be if the courts gave them a fair trial and then, if guilty, handed out their punishment."

lol, that is brilliant Good News. Sure, that is very true.....now, tell me, what are we doing in Afghanistan? Are we arresting Osama's people or are we killing them? What about in Iraq? Sure, we caught Saddam but all the others have been killed......is this what you call justice?

"The Iraq war gave these terrorists a cover-up excuse (which have put them into a better position with the British people) but these attacks have occured before the Iraq war and they probably would have happened even if we had not gone to war. They use are foreign policy as an excuse to bomb us. But the real reason is they hate the West. They want to make the whole world into an Islamic theocracy. "

Right, so, it was ok for us to rape, pillage, and kill but not for "Islamic extremists." Crusades familiar to you? You've told me before though that the pope apologized for that......well then.....if in another thousand years the muslims apologize for killing British people then it'll be ok. Also, I don't see the littlest bit of proof that backs up your evil and stereotyping comment. What gave you the idea that they would attack even if we hadn't bombed their country and killed young childrem, women, and men.

"But there is a huge difference between the invasion of Iraq and the London bombing. And in the Iraq invasion, civilians did die but it was not intentional."

What is the difference? In both attacks people have died. That is no difference. The killing of people in any way shape or form is a terrible thing. I think even jesus would agree with that.

"So they get young, poor people who are dissatisfied with their life and the UK and they train them to kill themselves and innocent people."

This comment made me laugh. It is the epitemy of propaganda. Sure, all the news says that terrorist suicide camps for kids are in form and such and they send young children of too suicide bomb. Ok then. Just a little bit of homework for you. Find a neutral website that lists suicide bombings and the bombers......in the years that I have lived I have NEVER seen on the news a child that has gone out and suicide bombed anywhere. Hell, anyway, we do that too. We send of poor people that need a job of to war. Keep in mind that these people are young too. Usually 18 or 19. So don't be such a damn hypocrite.

"Well that is partly it. But you should also understand the Jewish context."

Hell, I don't care what the jews, christians, muslims, buddhists, Hindus, or any religion say. Your great god gave you the power of thought. EXCERCISE THAT!!!!!!!!! You can think for yourself can't you?

"Christians have resisted before. When you become a Christian, the power of Christ is within you and He can do great things. Christ forgave us for our sins and so we should forgive others. That is not to say that justice should not be done. You should have the murderer put in prison by the courts. But you should not seek revenge."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Nice, if we should not seek revenge then what the hell was the war in Afghanistan? Christ for gave your sins.......and you should forgive others......THEN STICK TO YOUR WORD AND DO IT!!!!! Also, when you become a muslim the power of mohammed is within you and he can do great things........you troll .

I'll reply to your message in greater depth later but I find it ironic that you call me a troll.

I think I can also see how your mind works by the fact that you call everything that disagrees with your view of the world 'propoganda'. If you studied your facts, you would see that most suacide bombers and Islamic terrorists are quite young. And if you went to London a few months ago and so the Islamic march where they burned Union flags and called for death to Brits, you would have seen that most of the people were young.

You see, it is easier to brainwash young people and so that is why these extremists prey on them.