h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi, Bran! Just out taking in the air of the Guide, and introducing myself to new people.

Good to meet people with a similar interest in the ancient world. What do you make of those reports of faces carved on henges in Britain? (OK, neither Anglish - Anglish? - nor Celtic, but still interesting, n'est pas?)


Mustapha the Nomadic

G'Day Mustapha. Sorry but I haven't yet heard of any faces carved in henges. Tell me more. Sounds interesting.
Nice to hear from you.
Bran.

Well, the story goes that about a month back, there was a report on BBC Online's science page about someone claiming to have discovered a face on the side of one of the standing stones at Stonehenge. Then last week, there was another face discovered on another henge, this time in Callanish in West Scotland. The pictures that accompanied the reports show rudimentary faces, distinct enough to be recogniseable when pointed out, but indistinct enough to be dismissed as the result of several-thousand-year-old weathering.

Try this link to read about the "face" on Stonehenge:
http://news2.thls.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid%5F474000/474977.stm

...and this one for Callanish:
http://news2.thls.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid%5f511000/511452.stm

Have a good look round, because the BBC Science page is one of the best on the web!

Well I'll be schnookered! Interesting ... I don't see any reason why there shouldn't have been original carvings on the stones - what is more surprising is that no-one has suggested it before. Still, it is a bit in the eye of the beholder, so who knows. BBC site is great ... thanks for the suggestion. Have you been to Callanish or Avebury by the way?
Cheers
Bran.

Regrettably, no. But it is on my evergrowing list of things-to-do.

And it is amazing no-one has noticed them before! Perhaps people have noticed them and dismissed them because no-one in a position of archaeological authority has said anything. Or maybe people have been too busy dancing around naked.

There's no stylistic similarity, but then that assumes they were built at the same time by the same culture, which is a big leap to make. You could have a quick look for faces at the other henges around Britain, and other megalithic structures like Carnac, but then it's a lot like listening to records backwards for Satanic messages - you're going to find it regardless of whether it's there or not.


Mustapha the Intrigued

You said it. I recently was watching a series on archaeology called something like "discovering your ancestors" or whatever, in which they tried to reconstruct an image of a buried person's face as well as the social milieu. Quite a good series, but I found that the problem with the archaeology was that once you went beyond the actual finds the conjecture was rampant as to the meaning of objects, etc. The same problem with the "faces" - what do they mean?
Bran.

Probably trying to achieve a personal connection with the viewer who might otherwise see "a bunch of old bones" rather than people who lived, loved, ate, drank, etc.

From what I've heard of that particular series, weren't they trying to find some sort of ethnic similarities between past and present day inhabitants (provided they can actually find people with that kind of lineage), perhaps showing ethnic dis/replacement. I remember another British doco was trying to do a similar thing with DNA (and perhaps that's what I'm thinking of).

Just thought of the doco name: "Meet the Ancestors". As you say, they weren't trying to make a link with modern people - though in two of the episodes they did do something like that. One of a body in Somerset in which they tested volunteers in a local village, and one where they found a likely descendent (this was for a 13-14th century find in the remains of a Cistercian church on the borders of Wales).

Still, I quite enjoyed the series, especially where they tried to recreate items using similar technology. One for a find in Suffolk, not that far from Sutton Hoo, they recreated a sword using the patent (sp?) welding contemporary method, and it came up with a wavy pattern on the flat of the blade. And if you look in Beowulf, a "wavy-patterned sword" is described. This is the use of archaeology that I find most exciting - linking with contemporary or near contemporary documentary evidence.
Cheers
Bran.

When you say "pattern", do you mean inscribed on the blade after forging, or do you mean in the grain of the sword, like in the Damascan method (in which the metal is folded and twisted during forging, causing a "wavy" grain to be seen in the blade)?

The Damascan method sound exactly like what I mean. The sword is made up of rods of twisted metal which are welded and flattenned. Not heard of that term before. Ta.
Bran the Impressed.

Wow! I had no idea the Anglo-Saxons had that kind of skill. Swords made in this fashion (named after the city of Damascus) are extremely strong and extremely flexible. I saw a short piece on a German blacksmith who still makes these swords. He took a dagger, put one edge on a piece of iron and whacked the other edge with a hammer or mallet, causing the dagger to cut through the iron.


Mustapha the Equally-Impressed

As you say: WOW! If you haven't already done so, have a read on some of the Sutton Hoo finds. As well as the weaponry remains, there are some absolutely extraordinary finds of jewelry - gold, millafiore enamel, garnet, silver sulfide for definition and all sorts of stuff. There is a recent book out by Martin Carver called "Sutton Hoo: Burial Ground of Kings" that is a bit popular but a good review.

What some of those Ancients got up to! Oy, oy, oy!

Bran the Staggered.

On a slightly different tangent, have you seen "The 13th Warrior" yet?


Mustapha Skullsplitter

No. What sort of thing be it?

Oh, any NZ gossip in the making of The Lord of the Rings?

Bran the Fan.

It be Viking film. It star Antonio Banderas as Arab exile, who travel north and become Viking warrior, help fight "ancient evil".

Very confoosing, characters not grow, focus on Banderas all wrong, but plenty battle, plenty blood and stuff.

* shakes head rapidly as if shaking something loose *

Aah, that's better. As for LOTR, the last news I heard was that the NZ Forest & Bird Society was getting all hissy about the effect production might be having on the local wildlife et al.

For all sorts of goss and the occasional photo, check out:

http://www.cinescape.com

I'll keep an eye out for it (pop! - owww!). Sorry, too obvious.

I had found some stuff on LOTR on www.theonering.net (I think), which was recommended off some H2G2 forum I read. I wonder how it will turn out - I am sort of excited by the prospect, being a devotee, but have a mild reservation about having faces attached to the characters that will not match how I have envisaged them, and an interpretation of the books that differs from my own. Must be a brave director to take on such a project. Apparently he did "Heavenly Creatures" which was kind of good.

On the Viking topic, I read a boog called "Byzantium" last year or so by Stephen Lawhead, which is a sort of Irish-Scandinavian-Greek-Arabian saga (you know, the usual sort of thing). Quite good research as far as I can tell on Vikings and Irish, though I'll have to take his word for it on the Greeks and Arabs. He has also jusy put one out on the first crusade called the "Iron Lance" - also well-researched, though not as interesting character-wise. Tends to be a bit reportorial in style rather than eloquent (or whatever). Do yourself a favour ... as Molly Meldrum used to say over here.

Your in History
Bran.

Actually "13th Warrior" is based on a book "Eaters of the Dead", this one by Michael Crichton, who's much more famous for dinosaurs. According to the blurb in Amazon based on "actual journal entries of an Arab man who traveled with a group of Vikings throughout northern Europe." Readers' reviews of this book fall into either "love it/loathe it" category.

Read a little Lawhead a long time ago, it was a little too dry, not intricate or deep enough for my own particular tastes. My personal faves include "The Coming of the King" by Nikolai Tolstoy, and "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco. (Big Eco fan - "Island of the Day Before" is also a good historical one, very funny!)

I hear what you saying about LOTR. Peter Jackson has gone on record saying that he can only make HIS version of LOTR, not anyone else's. Interestingly enough, George Lucas, who should know all about this particular creative dilemma, has said that he doubts Jackson can pull it off, (but to mitigate this, he was interested to see how it turns out). So it looks like its going to be a bit of a battle of the beards (as both gentlemen are both rather stout, bearded fellows) as people will no doubt be comparing the two trilogies.

BTW, other Peter Jackson work of note (besides "Heavenly Creatures") include Bad Taste, The Frighteners and Forgotten Silver (not a film as such but a mockumentary about a fictional NZ filmmaker that had a good deal of the public fooled).


Mustapha the 36 3/4 Warrior

I have heard of the "Eaters of the Dead" book but not actualyl sighted it. Will add it to the ever-growing list.

I agree with you about Lawhead. Very dry ... I have mostly only read them as I am interesting in the subject matter. His characterisations are a bit shallow for me, and he is not the greatest for literary flourish.

An author that writes psuedo-historical material that I have enjoyed greatly is Guy Gavriel Kay. His most recent is "Sailing to Sarantium", which is essentially based on Byzantium c.500-600, though he presents it as a fantasy novel. Very well-written. His other works are very well-crafted. My favourite was "A Song for Arbonne". (I have said very a lot!)

Bran the Medieval-Minded

Having lived on lewis for a number of years, and visited the stones in callanish on most solstices, I think I'm quallified to offer an opinion on 'the face in the stone'.

Viz : It's only there if you want it to be there.

Another note : in the past, many of the stones have been broken, and on one of them it is very clear to see the new cement bonding. The local council - some years ago - fenced the stones off, and the recommended advice is to visit the site but don't move among the stones to prevent deterioration.

One interesting point about these is -seen from above - the stones form a duplicate of 'The Celtic Cross' (traditional - not football team).

Thanks for the info. I wondered if the face in the stone might have been a bit like those people seeing the Virgin in patterns on concrete or wallpaper or whatever. Good to have an eye-wiyness account.

When you say a Celtic cross for the stones, I assume you mean the Christian one overlayed with a circle?

What is it like living on Lewis? I have met a lady here in Hobart who grew up there and is a native speaker of Scots-Gaelic. Is it still spoken there?

Cheers
Bran.