h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Having mentioned Bobby Sands...

Psychocandy was asking for a run down on The Troubles (see her 'we'll probably break the DVD' thread), and I was considering asking our Irish contingent to chip in.

There used to be loads of Bobby sands jokes, didn't there? The only one I can remember is 'How many Provos can you get in a mini?'










(5 - two in the front, two in the back, and Bobby sands in the ashtrays)

I would be happy to discuss it - I lived in Belfast for a few years and I like history. Where's the link?

Have a root around PCs page for the DVD thread...or continue here and I'll invite her over.

Here's an interesting observation - I was born and raised in 'Ireland's other capital city' - ie Liverpool. But it was only when I got to Glasgow that I became conscious of who was protestant and who catholic...although we did have Orange visitors once a year, walking a torturous route to pass by as many catholic churches as they could find. Apparently one of Liverpool's two teams is catholic and the other prod. Few people in Liverpool can tell you whoch is which. But most people in Glasgow can!

Oh yeah...

Bobby Sands couldn't have been a real Irishman. He didn't have a pick on him.

The Protestant / Catholic thing isn't very prevalent here in the "south" either. Catholics were always over 90% of the population here so it never became the issue it was up North. Some towns here in Cork are known as "Protestant towns", but in a practical sense it doesn't make much of a difference. Schooling here still tends to be divided by religion, so it can be difficult to meet kids of the other "side". My eldest kid is going to a Church of Ireland school - which is no big deal nowadays, but might have been something more of a problem with my parents when I was going to school.

Re - the "south" - this "Eire" thing drives us bonkers here. No-one in Ireland calls the place "Eire". Just Ireland, thank you!

Well there is Eircom...

Sorry, hope you don't mind me butting in- living, as i do now in Belfast, the subject interests me somewhat.

I would say that 7 out of 10 folk i meet here in the North, don't have any great prejudice one way or another- many are in 'mixed' relationships... it's the other 3 that cause the problems

I must say, the coloured paving stones took a little getting used to. I'm escaping the July12th 'festivities' though- not a nice atmosphere in my opinion- feels a bit Nurembourg like, all that marching Folk here say ireland rises several meters in July, with the mass (no pun intended) exodus off the island....

I think it's a bit of a lever effect: a ton of them all come South!

The official name in the Irish language is "Éire", but in the English language it's Ireland. Calling Ireland "Éire" is the equivalent of referring to Wales as "Cymru". It just sounds strange to us folk.

I think the thing about the 7 out of 10 people is fair to an extent, although it's still a salient point that that so many people voted SF / DUP in the last election. The political middle ground has been devastated. Not exactly a sign of great communal happiness.

I think that the schooling system has to take some share of the blame. Integration has been fiercely resisted by the churches on both sides, and even the government alarmingly withdrew or reduced funding to integrated schools. Bizzare.

I think NI still has a very long way to go in terms of illiminating sectarianism - a good few generations, not just years

When i used to just visit here, i honestly thought the whole cath/prod thing was a non-issue for most- a thing of the past. It's much less prominent now for sure- murals are coming down and pavements aren't always being re-painted. But when you get to know lots of folk here over time, it seems an attitude of us and them from both 'sides' is very, very deep rooted in their syche.

Deep seated feelings of resentment from both sides seem to be just simmering beneath the surface. Most folk here don't see it though- or they don't see it as a problem. I, however as an outsider pick up on the casual derogitory statements made against 'them' more acutely perhaps.

Off course, as July approaches, flags and banners are appearing everywhere, and bonfires are being built. As July 12th and 13th are public hildays here, there isn't really much to discourage people from wallowing in the past and celebrating bygone victories against their now-neighbours

Right. And I guess it's not totally absent here in the south either. There is a Protestant school in the town I live in and a couple of weeks ago I heard from someone that the kids who go there were "different". To be fair, most people here are not very conscious of the sectarian differences, but since most kids still go to Catholic schools or Protestant schools (what few of them there are), there are few opportunities enough to meet with kids from the other side. I think it's changing though. When I was a kid, 85% of the population used to go to Mass every Sunday. Now it's less than 50% and dropping quickly. Organised religion is not such a big deal anymore - except for funerals and the like. But still, there are traces of it left that will take generations to disappear.

It's also a factor that the Protestant population is comfortable being Irish - after all, Southern Protestants feature strongly in Irish history and culture: Yeats, Wilde, Swift, Parnell, Douglas Hyde etc.

I daren't admit it to the folk i currently stay with (though not for much longer), but i really do prefer the south. Or more accurately, Ireland, the Republic, whatever- The way the border has ended up is so odd don't you think? With the most Northerly point of the Island being in the South, geographically!

A couple of pals are coming over in a fortnight, one who i haven't seen for almost a year- we're going to spend the weekend in ireland. Not finalised yet, but probably County wicklow area if we go down the usual route of a scenery/walking type break, but we might, just might end up in Dublin talking the drink/fe#k/girls route

*Controversial statement alert* I and a few people i've spoke to here, really do think life would be so much easier and more logical if the whole Island was non-uk and in the Euro, etc. Not for any political/ religious reason- just convienience wise, in so many ways. It seems absurd having two totally separate countries in such a small island, separated by this apparentally random(though i'm sure there's a good reason for every mile of it), meandering border

Cyprus, eh?

Some of the problem is that Northern Ireland as an entity is rather contrived. The traditional "Province" of "Ulster" in reality is 9 counties, not 6. The original plan was for the whole of Ulster to remain part of the UK, but since Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan are all overwhelmingly Catholic, it would have upset the demographics in favor of the Catholics far too much, so those counties became part of the South.

I think the consensus here is a very strong aspiration towards eventual unity, but by agreement and not by force. The two areas have been separate for over 80 years and they have both now gone in different directions. I honestly can't see any real unification in my lifetime - well, maybe when I am very old. It will take generations to get rid of the bitterness. Any attempt at unification in the next 15 to 20 years would likely lead to civil war, and few people have very much appetite for that.

various points:

Coloured paving stone...
The reallt bizarre thing to me is that you also find this in some enclaves in Lanarkshire. Also...if you fly in to Glasgow on Guy Fawkes night, you can pretty much pick out the catholic areas by the absence of bonfires. Just innocent taig burning fun, eh?

Education...
Similarly. As an Atheist Fundamentalist, I don't believe that religion has a place in schools in the first place. There's far too much of the nonsense in my kids' school. Schools are segregated here also. A couple of years back, there were proposals made for shared-campus primary schools, but the catholic church objected strongly. The Scottish RC hierarchy is notoriously reactionary.

Cyprus...
There's little useful comparison between Cyprus and Ireland. The Turkish/Greek partition came about as a result of Henry Kissinger's realpolitik...encouraging Turkey in their land grab to keep them tucked up cosy within NATO. The southern government has resolutely maintained Turkish as an official language (question: does that make it an official EU language?). The North, on the other hand, has been used as Lebensraum for unemployed malcontents from the mainland. Yes, there have been tensions in the Greek community, and yes there was aggressive Greek nationalism in the 50s/60s - but since the border has re-opened, Greek Cypriots have largely been able to visit quite happily.


I've holidayed in a gorgeous Cypriot mountain village a couple of times and have been bowled over by the friendliness of the villagers. I mentioned the name of the place to a security guard at work, an ex-army type, and he said, 'Och...I know the place! They were sheltering EOKI terrorists and we had to burn their roofs off!'

I lived in Belfast for 3 years back in the early 90's, and I must say it was very different to what I was expecting. The Irish broadcaster RTÉ tended to show the North from the perspective of coffins and funerals without ever really going into the situation in too much depth. The dominant message was that NI was a "mad, bad, sad place". It had the effect of making people down here feel that it was a no-go-area, that all that ruled was complete senselessness, and that you could be picked off if you went up there. The authorities in the South never put up a mirror to themselves to see how Irish Nationalism and Catholicism were contributing to the problems. There was a sense of moral superiority in play in the South.

What was new to me when I went up North was in finding out how they perceived us. In a word, they thought we were backward. The Republic was known as Mexico - bad roads, poor facilities, Church dominated, poor economy, corruption etc. Moral superiority in the reverse direction. At least it made me realise that this was a problem for the whole island, and not something that could be confined to just one part of it.

In a sense I still think that we in the South still are hypocritical about the North. We say things like "ooh Sinn Féin should share power with the Unionists", but if our government have to share power with the Shinners down here, they will fight it tooth and nail. We were delighted with an amnesty from prison for all IRA men who killed soldiers and RUC men, and yet when IRA men killed Gardai in the south, we made sure that the key was well and truly thrown away. We even look at Ireland as the whole island - 32 counties - in all official literature and schoolbooks, despite having withdrawn our constitutional claim to NI in the Good Friday Agreement. What's good for the goose sure ain't good for the gander.