h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

`I am very interested in finding other LDS people in H2G2. So if you read this and qualify, say hi.'

I'm seriously considering converting to LDS, do I qualify? I've been looking for some LDS people on h2g2 and you're the only one I can find who's even slightly active .

Anyway, some more about the conversionness... I'm 15, and want to convert. I've read a lot about LDS, and know that it's right. There's only one thing left to do: persuade my parents. Unfortunatly, they have a problem with it, so life's going to get pretty difficult soon.

Will

Hi Will,

I am very glad to make your acquaintance. I would love to know more of your story. How did you first start learning about the LDS Church? You said your parents object, what don't they like about it?

If you have any questions about anything, feel free to ask. If I don't know the answer, I will find it for you.

snazoo

Well... I suppose it'd make more sense if I started from the beginning. I was born, baptised, and raised by weakly Protestant parents (quite common in the area I was born in), who rarely went to church, and didn't teach me anything about... well, anything. I was basically Agnostic from birth, but only started thinking about such things when I got to about eight or nine. I remember walking around, at the far end of a field of grass during lunch break, thinking about life, and God, and its plausibility. I don't think I came to a hard conclusion at that time.

I started out six years of prep. school not thinking about religion. I didn't care all that much: I had lots of problems throughout that time, and didn't want another thing to think about. By the end of it, though, I'd decided that Atheism or Agnosticism made sense.

There was one thing about my second prep. school (the latter three years), that might not be considered normal where you are. The school was `officially' Christian, and so we had Religious Studies twice a week. During that time, I grew further and further from Christianity, as my teachers failed to teach me anything that impacted me. They made the Bible sound like a history book.

One particular incident from last year (the last of my prep. school years) comes to mind. My RS teacher was an avid debater, and so we were told to pick and defend points of view. I was assigned - because I couldn't care less about which topic I took - to oppose the statement that `Religion does more harm than good.'. At the end of the class, despite my best attempts (which I found hypocritical), we failed to persuade anybody. The entirety of my class condemned religion as an illogical, malicious, component of society. I was happy about that, at the time. Now, I realise that there were so many things I could have said to further support my argument, that I didn't know about at the time.

In the fifth year of my prep. schooling, my form teacher was Mormon. He brought it up the first day of school, and basically said, if you have a problem with that, get it over with now. Like most of my peers, I wasn't interested in what his religion was, and didn't think about it again that year. Now, I understand why he said it.

So... my sixth year of prep. school ended. Over the summer, I moved to the United States - one year, and five days, ago.

Looking back at the school community I left behind, I see apostasy, by people who didn't understand what Christianity is about. Then again... that's fifteen year old NW-England children for you, I suppose. Religion was viewed as a negative thing, a trial, a waste of time. The Agnostics and Atheists found it amusing, and the believers found it annoying.

From the start, I knew that the USA was much more religious than the UK. I'd heard about the `Bible belt', and was happy that I'd moved to California, where things were relatively calm on the persecution front (minor sarcasm intended, and directed in every which way). I expected to go on ignoring religion.

Ten months ago, I started USA high school, at the age of fourteen (and then fifteen) years old. I alternated between Atheism and Agnosticism, and read up on religion a lot, so I knew what was going on. By that time, I was convinced that religion was a joke: I mean, how do you maintain scriptures over 2000 years without them completely changing their meaning? And besides, who cares how things happen anyway?

On April 22, at about midday, I was sitting in a park, with a particularly interesting woman of my own age, named Diana. She's a really faithful believer in LDS, and got me thinking about the information I had on Mormonism. I researched it some more, liked what I read, and bore it in mind.

By the end of May, I'd drained Encarta and the LDS FAQ web site for information. Sure, you say, it's a teenage love thing. I want her to like me, so I get interested in her religion. Erm... no. We didn't end up going out, even though I would have liked it. Anyway, I asked her for a copy of the Book of Mormon, and started reading it.

22 days later, I'm still reading it. I'm talking to Diana about it a lot, and she's answering a lot of my questions. She's been supportive, although a lot of others haven't. My grandfather (who was recently here on vacation) has serious problems with LDS, and most of it's based on stuff that isn't true (believe me, I've checked). My dad thinks that Mormonism's extreme, because of the restrictions (such as the Word of Wisdom). One of my closest friends has unspecified problems with LDS, and with religion in general. Another is strongly Agnostic, and keeps on telling me it, although she is happy for me. Yet another thinks that I'm making a mistake with religion in general, but says that it's my life. More negatively, there're many people on h2g2 who are vehemently anti-Mormon, and who've argued against it in conversation threads. I haven't talked to anyone else about conversion, although I started and participate in a topic about religion on the message boards I moderate for. Generally, there's more negative than positive in the reactions of the people I've asked. As Diana said, if only they knew what it was about. That's why I posted to your PS. I need someone who believes in LDS to talk with about what I'm doing.

I've read up to Alma 22 in the Book of Mormon. Its words fill me with a peace and calmness that I've never had before. Since I started reading, I've been happier in my life in general. In everything apart from religion, my parents and I are getting on, which hasn't happened much in the past (I believe that 22 days is a record), and I feel happier inside myself. The words of the Prophets about Jesus Christ are helping me to understand what religion is. With each page, my faith in God, and my belief in Him, grows stronger. Today, I read for a long time, and then prayed. Now, I'm sure of my beliefs.

I received a call from one of my friend's friends today. He invited me to one of the new member meetings at the local LDS church. I told him what I've been telling Diana when she's asked: wait another month. I intend to finish reading the Book of Mormon, and then join LDS. The day when I become a member of the church will be one of the happiest in my life, probably second only to the day I started reading the Book of Mormon.

However, I want my parents' support in this. I know that they won't convert, and I accept that. I do, however, want them to be here for me, but I don't think that they will be after the things that they've said. Furthermore, I can't imagine what my grandfather would think. He said, in as many words, that he wouldn't let me ruin my life.

There are some cases where I have to make my own decisions. This is one of them, and I've decided.

Although, like I said before, Diana's answering most of my questions, we're both fifteen years old, and I need someone more... I don't know... mature to speak to about this. Just having someone to post stuff like this to helps me a lot, and I'm thankful for the opportunity. I'll try and make the posts slightly shorter in future ^^.

Will

Hi Will,

Thank you so much for sharing your story with me. I think it's great that you're going into this decision with such a strong foundation of prayer and study.

I thought it would be only fair to share my story with you in exchange. I did grow up a member of the LDS faith. My parents are both very faithful, devout Mormons; my father a was raised LDS and my mother converted when she was 16.

When I was 6 years old, we moved from New Hamshire to New York City where my family lived until 3 years ago, almost 20 years. So, even though I had a very strong family, we lived in an area with very few other Mormons. My high school had approximiately 2000 students my senior year and about 8 of us were LDS. I understand your position with some of your friends because I defended my religion on an almost daily basis. Because of that, I had to figure out for myself, regardless of my parents faith, that the Church was the right place for me and I developed my own testimony.

When I was 17, I decided I needed to read the Book of Mormon myself from cover to cover. I had heard the stories since childhood and followed along in Sunday School and Seminary, but I felt like it was time to take up Moroni on his promise in Moroni 10:3-5. It took me a few months, but I finally knew for myself that the Book of Mormon was true through study and prayer.

After I graduated high school, I decided to put my education on hold and go on a mission. I worked for a couple years and then served a mission in Florida and Salt Lake in the American Sign Language program. Since I've been home, I've been trying, slowly, to get a degree in Art and a Masters in Deaf Ed and working as an interpreter. I think the rest you've already seen on my space in the Guide.

I'm not online as often as I would like, but be patient, I will answer any post eventually.

snazoo

Thanks for reading it . I decided that I'd do my research before I made any move towards or away from LDS. It's like sitting on the side of a pool, dipping your feet in to see if you like the temperature. I've pretty much decided by now, but I'm going to finish reading anyway .

I tend to be on a lot, but most of the time I don't write anything. Occasionally, though, I'm in a talkative mood... in other words, I reply at random intervals .

I'll write some more when I feel so inclined , which might be sometime soon... I dunno. Someone needs to wake up my muse, I think .

Will

Okay, now for the annoying convert questions, taken from my thoughts, and those of the LDS haters onsite that I can't answer myself.

Plurality of Gods. Somewhere or other, Joseph Smith said "As man now is, God once was, and as God now is, man may become.". Erm... meh. I'm sure that there's something iffy about that, but I can't put my finger on the issue. I suppose it reminds me too much of polytheism, which I've never seen practiced before in a Christian church. Discuss?

In D&C (I forget which parts), Joseph Smith makes numerous prophecies. Some of the most quoted ones are that the Government would fall a few years after he was killed (or something to that effect), and that he'd be around to see Christ's return, and something about a church being established somewhere or other... yeah, anyway. I've only actually seen the second one, and can't find the references to the others. Anyway, it didn't happen. Therefore, was the prophesy incorrect? According to the Bible (again, I can't remember where), that makes him a false prophet, in my humble, inexperienced opinion. Again, correct me / discuss?

By asking those questions, I'm not criticising LDS or anything, just trying to get rid of some of this confusion I have. Don't take it the wrong way like I know some people would .

Somewhat less antagonisticly... I assume that the events in the Book of Mormon took place somewhere in the Americas. Does anyone know specifically which part? IE, do we know which modern-day country the land of Nephi, etc., was located in?

Baptism for the dead? I don't understand from the conversations, haven't read about it in the Bible or the Book of Mormon, and can't find much of substance in the Topical Guide. I assume that you know what it is, so... erm... what is it?

Thanks,
Will

Church Prophesy:
`For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord,' D&C 84

According to other users, there wasn't a church built there. D&C 95 seems to support this.

I can't find the references to the other D&C sections, though.

hi will
im lds as well! ive been a member for 2yrs on n off! im an only member in my family! so,when i told my dad that i was getting baptised was pretty scary at first! my dad thought that i was going through a stage in my life! but,im still here in the church!

so,what was it that caught ur eye about the church?
will,the only advice that i could give u is pray about it! u dont hve to take the advice because its up to u!
im a member but,im in the edinburgh stake in the uk!

Howdy Will and Everyone else who has his same questions,

I'm going to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge. Here is my background. I've been a member of the church for something to the extent of 16 1/2 years but haven't beleived in it for roughly three. I am 16 1/2 years old now (implying that I've been a member since my birth). I have taken a seminary class (a class about the LDS church) and live in Salt Lake City, Utah. About half the people here are very serious mormons and the other half are not. So I do get multiple views on every conversation about the church.

For those who are unsure as to vocabulary:
Mormon: A member of the LDS Church (a slang term)
LDS: Latter Day Saint
LDS Church: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints founded by Joseph Smith in 182X (or sometime around then).
Joseph Smith:
-A Mormon's View: The First Latter Day Prophet and revealer of the book of Mormon
-A Non-Mormon's View: A Latter Day BSer with excellent salesmanship and the ability to write in an antique version of english, which resembles the bible's. OR, a loony.
(I will not mention which I am partial to this is, or is trying to be, an unbiased essay-type writing.)
Non-mormon: Not a mormon.
Book of Mormon [BoM]: A book which Joseph Smith revealed to the world as the writings of various prophets who had come to the Americas sometime post the tower of Babel. It tells of their revelations and the coming of Christ to the Americas between his death and ressurrection. It also explains the LDS dogma and religious beleif system.


With that out of the way I return to Will's very good questions.
Plural Gods? Yes, and at the same time, no. It's a confusing point that requires more studying than I have done but, very basically, if you are granted into the highest level of heaven, you are officially perfect (or at least a perfect being) which qualifies you to become god to your own little world. It also, in the same statement, implies that god once was like us. Kinda gives you hope, eh?

The 2nd coming: I believe it was D&C which states that there will be a "second coming" of christ. Christ at some point, very soon (but still unknown) the world will be visited by Christ a second time and then it will come to an end. The good will be transferred straight to their earned level of heaven and the bad will be left behind (a book series about this exact same thing) to face their crimes.

Location of the BoM: This is unsure but yes, the common beleif is that it took place in South America. This is NOT a definite fact nor is this said by the prophet or god. This is STRICTLY speculation.

Baptisms for the Dead: In the temple, if a family so chooses, a baptism may be performed for a person who has passed away. The person in their after life may then accept or decline the offer to be baptised.

I hope that helps with your questions. Alot of people become confused over these and other questions so here you are. I'm not 100% on the 1st two but the second two are definitely true.

Anything else?

BTW, if you would like two sites to go to.
www.lds.org is a site from the church for information on the church.
www.exmormon.com is a site with the opposite view of the church.
these two sites have conflicting views and I suggest you read them BOTH on ANY subject or area of the church before you make any judgements.

i think that was nicely done!
so,do u think that ull go on a mission when u turn the right age?
if,so then where would u like to go n y?

I do not plan to go on a mission. I will say this and hope not to come off as a jerk. I believe that the LDS church is false and that you'd have to be either very gullible or very easily persuaded to beleive in any church at all. DON'T GET ME WRONG I'M NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE STUPID OR IGNORANT OR BRAINDEAD. I simply believe that a belief in god or an after life or reincarnation is a fear of death and a need to know that you won't just, stop existing. I'm only saying that you are a coward and even then I'm not saying that. I just think that you can't come to terms with your being a being that will just disappear and turn into dirt.

I've known very intelligent, brave, powerful, strong and influential people who are in many different churches. I have friends and "enemies" in these churches. But I see it as if my Jewish friend knows just as strongly that his church is true as my catholic friend knows her church is true then they've nullified their telling me so. I rely strictly on facts and what my instincts tell me, which is exactly what church leaders tell me to do. And that's what drives me away from any church.

I'm not closed minded because I do look for the "true" church but I still have not found it. Until then my family believes I'm mormon and the records show I am, but my friends and mentors know otherwise.

Maybe I should've stated this as proof that I'm not a biased jerk. My family (extended and close) are all LDS and I love and respect them.

i know how ur feeling! im not sure if,i believe in anything that gets said in the church is true!
we had fasting tstimony meeting on sunday n i thought the bishop just dragged on about nothing!
thats how bored i was!

Hmm... so now I have lots of stuff to answer... I was gonna start with a piece about my family, and what they think about this :'(, but I've decided to start from the end and move up, so James is first .

Besides, I have this annoying need to inject some faith into the conversation after those posts .

For Snazoo's answers to my questions, see F122920?thread=301637 . I'd prefer it if we kept discussion in this conversation, though .

James: your answers were pretty much corresponding to the ones linked above, so I assume that they're accurate . I've been to both sites in the past, and found interesting material on both of them; however, LDS.org is the one that remains in my bookmarks, for obvious reasons. One of these days, I'll get around to e-mailing the exmormon.com webmaster . We could debate religion, which I'd find interesting, but I'd prefer to keep this conversation slanted towards Snazoo and my views on things . If you're in a debating mood, there's plenty of it on the conversation forums attached to A320338. You could also leave a message at my PS, and I'd be happy to service you.

Anyway; as you said, it's a good idea to read both sides of the story, and hear both viewpoints . I've covered that pretty well, if I may say so myself, and still think that LDS is a Good Thing.

At times in my life, I've thought everything that you said in post 12. I've been involved in a lot of religious debate in my time, and most of it has been from your side of the Fence. It took a lot of thinking to change my opinion, and I'm not going into this blind. I respect your opinion, and your right to express it .

Lois: I'll post this and then start writing a reply to you .

Robert

Hi Lois,

Nice to know we have another person to talk to. From the talks I've had with my dad, I think that getting baptised before I leave for college would kinda annoy him. His father has declared that I'm not to be allowed to do so, and he tends to listen to him. When I go back to the UK in the winter, it'll probably come up in conversation, which will be interesting, if my grandfather doesn't get it into his head to hit me a few times... thinking about it, that'd be interesting too, but whatever.

Now, onto your question; what was it that caught my eye about LDS? Before I decided on LDS, I was a staunch Agnostic Atheist. How did I decide to change my view so much?

To be honest, I started researching mainly because of Diana. Without her, I would have never heard of LDS, or been remotely interested in knowing about it. I'd thought for a while that my views were wrong, and thought that it was as good a time as any to change them. As in Alma 32, as I started to read, and thought, that apathetic attitude was replaced with interest, and then wonder, at what I was reading. It made sense! Diana, a feeling of awkwardness, and an overactive mind brought me to LDS, but its truth is the thing keeping me here.

Now, onto my thought of the day about family. My parents have blocked every appeal I've made to them to let me follow my own beliefs. I feel that it'd be almost impossible for me to be baptised without their permission, which I won't get. So... in three years, I'll be in college, and out of their faces. The first thing I'm going to do when I get to that state is call up the local LDS stake and ask for a missionary visit. Until then, I will be as much of a member as I can be without actually being one. As President Hinckley said, "No matter where we are, no matter our circumstances, we all can be faithful Latter-day Saints" (168th Semiannual General Conference).

thanx for the reply back!
im sure,that not matter what u decide to do it will turn out ok!
i think,when u do go to college then getting the missionaires to visit is a really idea!

"I simply believe that a belief in god or an after life or reincarnation is a fear of death and a need to know that you won't just, stop existing."

First of all, I think that's over-simplifying the issue just a bit. My religion pervades every aspect of my life, elevating the meaning of everything I experience. I truly believe that my life would mean so much less without the purpose and direction given to me by God.

Secondly, in my experience, people who don't believe in a higher power seem to live their lives more in fear than people who do. Look at our society today and the number of people trying to escape their dreary lives with drugs, sex, money or power over others. How many of them can honestly say their lives are happy? My life has such joy it's almost impossible to contain. Now, I'm not saying my life is peaches and cream. I have had my fair share of pain and disappointment and trial. But my faith in God has allowed me to see the purpose behind all things and I have experienced happiness that transcends any earthly pleasure. Can you say the same thing? Are you truly happy in your atheism?

"But I see it as if my Jewish friend knows just as strongly that his church is true as my catholic friend knows her church is true then they've nullified their telling me so."

I believe every church or individual that is truly striving to follow God will have truth given to them. We all have the light of Christ to guide us. Also, Judaism, Catholicism and most Christian sects were based on God's true religion at one time and still have part of that truth. Furthermore, as we are all descendents of Adam and he had the fullness of the gospel, I think you can safely assume that most world religions have fragments of truth in them. But the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only Church with His priesthood and His Prophet. To quote President Hinckley, "To anybody who is not of this Church, I say we recognize all of the virtues and the good that you have. Bring it with you and see if we might add to it."

"I rely strictly on facts and what my instincts tell me, which is exactly what church leaders tell me to do."

I'm sorry, but that is a false statement. Church leaders instuct us to find the truth for ourselves through study, prayer and the confirming power of the Holy Ghost, not through base instincts. Moroni 10:5 states, "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

snazoo

I agree with you on all fronts except the third. I believe that the "holy ghost" is just a more religiously correct way of saying "instincts". I don't really want to discuss that though.

Anyway, yes, as an agnostic I am happy. I believe that you are able to achieve happiness because you can drop cares of what your last words will be and what you will leave for your children because in the end you know it will work out. I'm not saying you will drop these cares, but you do not need to know quite so thoroughly. My parents (who are both divorced and remarried, so I include both step parents in this) all are trying to leave the best for me and my 4 brothers and 2 sisters as possible. But I find that my parents who are mormon (my mom and step-mom) seem to care a little less and just say, "keep praying and you'll be happy". However, the other two say, "be happy and don't spend all your money. Just be careful and try to live to be old and successful." The second point of view takes a helluvalot more work I can assure you.

As an atheist or agnostic or whatever, you have to worry about things like, 'what will i leave behind' or 'is my life going to be a waste'. That's why you're able to achieve a much happier state much easier. I've had to work towards it but now I believe I am much happier than most the religiously afflicted people I know who are worrying about what god thinks of them. It's much easier to worry about your view of you than some Supreme Judge's view of you. Especially with eternity in happiness or despair is on hand.

Now, if your wondering what I think about the situation with your parents.
Just do what you feel is best. Don't think that their opinion should affect you anymore than your opinion affects them. They don't want you to do it because it wierds them out that you are beggining to believe in something so "out-of-their-world". They're afraid you're making a rash decision and they're trying to protect you from this foreign thing that may take you away from them, even just a little. And as far as your grandfather goes, he seems like a close-minded, self-absorbed bastard who thinks very little of you as an intellectual and doesn't seem to understand your perspective and knowledge. If I'm anywhere near what his personality is, even on just this matter, pay him no heed. His opinion should go about as far as you can throw the statue of liberty.

-Kitsune

and Lois:
Getting bored in church is showing disinterest not disbelief. There's a strong difference. A disinterest in a section of your belief is you thinking you know as much if not more about what's being said. Think about this when he's talking, even if you think you know what he's talking about, "Do I believe that what this man/woman is saying is true?" If you think that, and ponder the point to yourself, you will find what YOU personally believe in. This is a more agnostic way of thinking usually but it's suggested by several churches (including the LDS church) so you should do so. BUT, you should also pray on it. It's very important that you do so in your religion, otherwise you have not properly seeked gods decision and are therefore making uninformed decisions that may or may not be unwise.