h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Is this personal space 'Anna's Russian Space'?

Tell me more about Kochey Bessmyertny. I know nothing about this one. Would you like to collaborate on this?

If you've reath the PR thread, you'll know that I tell a few of the stories occasionally (at camps and the like) and I produced and directed a playlet at my last camp, pantomime style. It was great fun and the youngsters really enjoyed it.

There's a Yugoslavian woman who I work with who knows more about Baba Yaga and I shall pick her brains as well. I know another storyteller who knows quite a few, however I hesistate to ask her as they are her bread and butter, so to speak. For a couple of years now, I've been trying to enlarge my store of Baba Yaga stories. You obviously know loads. Are there any books you can refer me to? I've trawled the web. It didn't really tell me much more than I already knew.

PS: You'll have noticed in several threads that Bels is contending that telling myths is 'off limits'. I don't subscribe to his view as I think they're a legitimate part of a country's history and fabric (see the PR thread for Baba Yaga and Perseus/Theseus). What do you you think?

Dear Singing Fish, nice to hear from you. Although I grew up reading a lot of fairy tales and as every Russian child know the name of Baba Yaga, I´ve never thougt about the deep meaning of this character. That would be nothing for kids (like all fairy-tales it has indeed a great symbolic value). There are two theories I´ve found about Baba Yaga. The first one is described on http://www.mythinglinks.org/BabaYaga by Kathleen Jenks, in a very nice article, so I wouldn´t repeat it here, but just add that witch means in Russian "ved´ma" - a wise woman (not necessarelly old). This topic is also brilliantly described in a novel of A. Cuprin "Olesya" (but only if you really are interested in).

In the second theory, which I could find in the Russian Web-Sites about the Slavic mythology, Baba Yaga has its origin in the beliefs and myths of the peoples living in Northern Russia (Nentsy, Finnish, Khanty, etc.). They had stone statues called Yagas or Golden Babas, a sort of local goddess asked for advices and empowered to decide about the life of people. Often they had their own little "huts" build on some trees` stumps and with lots of gifts including comestibles (recognize it?). The traditional exclamation of Baba Yaga "I smell Russian people here!" does also have an explanation. Russians used birch tar for their clothes (to make them waterproof) something rather different for the noses of the above mentioned tribes which lived in forests.

I think that this description of the symbolism has enough material for a separate Entry, and need not to be included in your Entry. I agree with Bels that it's nice additional information, but that would lead too far (IMHO). I'll post something to the PR thread if you need reinforcement.

Tomorrow I will post you the fairy tale with Kochey and Baba Yaga.

See you,

Anna

Thanks, Anna. I'm most grateful.

Your link didn't work - maybe their server is down.

I found this jolly link, which I'll explore at leisure http://russian-crafts.com/tales.html.

Huts with comestibles - cf the gingerbread house in Hansel and Gretel? The 'I smell the blood of Russian People' sounds like the traditional English giants:

Fee Fie Fo Fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman
Be he alive or be he dead,
I'll grind his bones to make my bread.

I suspect that the coming of Christianity turned what sound to be matriarchal goddesses into evil beings and distorted their character, although no doubt, there were dark sides to them. Baba Yaga seems to be typical of the birth, death, rebirth goddess and other sources say that she is (part of) a triple goddess. Graves' 'The Greek Myths' is full of them.

I didn't know the stuff about birch bark. That's really interesting. There are echoes in both the Vasilisa and Marusia stories of Cinderella. In the early Cinderella stories, the mother dies and is buried under a birch tree and it's the birch tree that provides the clothes. Cinderella hides in the tree after she runs away from the prince. I must read Joseph Campbell's 'The hero with a thousand names' which sort of says that all fairly stories are one - the sroty of growing up and dealing with life's trials.

I was fascinated by fairy stories long before I had my son, Kenneth and I've loads of books. I have two with Baba Yaga stories in them and a third which is a single Baba Yaga story. I used to tell it to him in the car on the way to the pre-school.

Off to work now .

oopsey: http://www.mythinglinks.org/BabaYaga.html

Ooh, thanks Anna!

I'll look at it properly over the weekend when I'm less tired. Having had a quick look, it says much of what I was saying, so it would make a good link and I love the pictures.

I was talking at work to my Yugoslavian colleague and she didn't know about Kochey Besmyertney (spelling?) and she said that in Yugoslavia, some of the names were slightly different. Her mother, apparently used to work in a publishing house that published children's stories, so as a child she had access to loads of the stories.

I think that there's probably a personal message here in Baba Yaga for me. In one of the other links, it suggested that women could meditate on the Baba Yaga. Although I'm not quite ready for my crone period, it could be an interesting excercise.

And now here's the fairy tale "Frosh Princess" in which Baba Yaga is quite helpful and Kochey doesn´t really act, but appears. He is the prototype of Death, just like the grim reaper with an enormous cape. The "Frosh Princess" of the link you have found is unfortunately a mixture of the first part of this fairy tale and the second part of "Elena, the Beautiful"

So far so good. And now a fairy tale with a kind Baba Yaga and Kochey Bessmyertnyi (Immortal) - Frog Princess:

Once upon a time there was a Tsar. He had three sons, the youngest named Ivanushka (Johnny). All of them were adult enough to marry, but how choose the right bride? The Tsar said: My dear sons, shoot an arrow and look where it comes down. There you have to look for a wife. The eldest son got a boyarin´s daughter (a boyarin is an equivalent to a baron), the second one ended up marrying a trader´s daughter. Ivanushka´s arrow has been picked up by a frog in a pond. As you can imagine, Ivanushka was not quite happy about it, but if daddy said...

One fine day the Tsar wanted to have a soft white bread from each daughter-in-law. Ivanushka came home and cried. "Why are you so sad, darling?", asked the Frog. Ivanushka told it the matter. The Frog calmed him down and sent him to bed (alone, understandably). The Frog went out of the house and took its ugly skin off and turned into Vasilisa the Wise. She called all her servants and they baked a big, beautiful, soft, white bread.

In the next morning the Tsar was quite surprised and thanked Ivanushka for this wonderfull gift. But than he wanted to have a
silk carpet - next morning. The same story again. Vasilisa´s carpet is of course the best one. The old Tsar thanks once again and ordered the sons to come with their wives on the next day. Ivanushka was quite nervous about it, but the Frog calmed him down saying she would arrive a bit later. The next day everybody came to the palace and laughed at Ivanushka. "Where is your sweet wife? Why don´t you bring her in a handkerchief?" Suddenly it thundered and a golden chariot arrived. Vasilisa, the Wise, came out and everybody stood there dumbstruck because of her beauty. During the party Ivanushka ran home and burnt the frog skin.

As Vasilisa arrived and saw this she became very sad and told her husband, that if he had been more patiently she could have stayed with him forever, but now he would have to look after her in the kingdom of Kochey Bessmyertnyi. Then she became a swan and left. Ivanushka cried bitterly and left for seeking her. After some days he met an old man who told him that Vasilisa was a daughter of Kochey, but as she was smarter than him, Kochey became angry and transformed Vasilisa for three years in a frog. Then the old man gave Ivanushka a ball of wool which should indicate the direction to Kochey's place. Ivanushka thanked him and continued his way. Suddenly he saw a bear, he wanted to hunt and kill it, but the bear asked him to leave him alive as it can be useful for Ivanushka. Then Ivanushka saw a goose, a rabbit and a fish pike and wanted to eat them. Each of these animals talked him out of doing that, like the bear.

After all of this the ball of wool led Ivanushka to the hut on chicken legs. Ivanushka told to it: Hut, oh, hut! Turn round and stay with your front to me, with your back to the forest! The hut turned around and he entered. Inside he saw Baba Yaga lying on the oven, the nose in the ceiling and sharpening her teeth. Baba Yaga exclaimed: "I smell a Russian man here. What are you looking for?" Ivanushka answered she should give him something to eat and to drink and fire a banya to wash him and after all of that she could ask him for the purpose. Baba Yaga did everything he asked for and than Ivanushka told her the whole story.

"I know!" - said Baba Yaga, "now Kochey Bessmyertnyi has Vasilisa under control and it isn´t easy to get her. The death of Kochey is on the top of a needle, the needle is in an egg, the egg is in a duck, the duck in a rabbit, the rabbit in a case and the case on the top of an oak." Then Baba Yaga told him how to go to the oak. As Ivanushka arrived and saw the giant tree he didn´t know what to do, as suddenly the bear came and broke the oak, the case fell down and broke. The rabbit, which was in it, ran away, but the rabbit Ivanushka had spared caught up on it and teared it to pieces, the duck flew away, but Ivanushka´s goose stroke it and the duck let the egg fall into the deep sea, but the fish pike brought the egg to Ivanushka, who opened it and broke the needle. Kochey was furious, but not for long because he died, and so Ivanushka took his sweet wife home. There they lived together happily for a long time. (Perhaps they haven´t had any children, otherwise they wouldn´t have been as happy...)

I'm going to study this one, Anna. Many thanks.

I've heard a similar story, which a professional story teller tells, although the details may be slightly different.

It's Kenneth's birthday today, so I don't think I shall be terribly acitive on h2g2. I will tell him the story, I think, though as a bedtime story.

Just had a quick look, Anna, and the Frog Princess is in the list of stories I gave you the link to, It's similar, although the heroine is Yelena the Fair. So much variation, such similar stories.

I really should read your posts more carefully. I've just caught on that the one in my link is a mixture of two other stories and I really liked it.

I'm going to see if I can extend my Baba Yaga entry without it getting too long, otherwise I might have to split it and treat the symbolism separately.

Dear Singing Fish,

Congratulations on Kenneth/pozdravlyayem Kennetha ! How old is he? I have two children, a daughter in the age of 22 months and a son of 7 months.

I would like to apologize for my poor English and for misleading information I´ve written about the origin of Baba Yaga`s cult. The nations I´ve ment adored goddesses who were represented by statues named Yaga from Nenetski "yaha" - the sea or lake. In some fairy tales you can still find the echo of this fact, as the Yaga´s hut stays on a seaside.

The Russians, normally soldiers who tried to conquest the regions of nentsy, finnish-ugrish, etc., called the statues "babas", an expression which is still used for such ston or wooden idols like e.g. those on Easter Island. There are some descriptions of these babas from Northern Russia: stone or wooden female statues, who often were in little wooden huts built especially for them. That´s why Baba Yaga´s hut is always too little and her nose grows in a ceiling. The shamans who talked to the goddess brought some meal as sacrificial offering, that´s the explication for the necessity to feed Vasilisa´s doll "to activate" it.

There are also some reports about the Golden Baba which should be confiscated by Russian occupators and was hidden in the woods difficult to get to. Until now there is no traces of it and the soldiers who did see it died in unexplicable ways. The more I think about all this the more it looks like the conquista of America. Of course its understandable that Baba Yaga doesn´t have any reason for being kind or helpful towards the Russians.

And who shell be represented by Kochey? As far as I have some free minutes and both little are sleeping, I´ll hunt down some references in the Russian-spoken part of www.

If you like to use this information for your entry about the meaning of Baba Yaga, don´t hesitate to do it.

Have a nice evening. Anna

He's seven, Anna. He had a Tracy Island for his birthday and he was absolutely delighted with it. He's now in bed. I won't spend much time on h2g2 tonight, though, as for some reason, I awoke at 2.30 am this morning and yesterday morning. Consequently, I am in much need of sleep.

I think I already told you, when he was little, I used to tell him the Tishka story in the car on the way to pre-school, so when I told in on camp a couple of times, if I missed the slightest detail, he would jump in. He also recited to rhyming couplets with me, just like a Greek chorus!

As you might have noticed I've used some of the information in your earlier posting in my entry. I'd like to use this as well.

Solnushka was right about the pronunciation - Yi-gar, with the emphasis on the 'gar', according to the new wife of my son's father who is Lithuanian and came round this evening. I showed her a little of the site and she knows lots of stories as well.

I like the explanation for feeding the doll. It makes sense. Another explanation (not inconsistent with the first one) is that Vasilisa is feeding her intuition. Psychologically speaking, that makes a great deal of sense.

I've been doing some work with developing your psychic sense and the more you play with it and trust it, the better it gets. If you ignore messages, they get fainter.

I used to be interested in the Greek myths (still am, but have less time) and have been fascinated to find that many of the myths are based on real happenings, especially the suppression of the matriarchal society by the patriarchal system. Heracles, for instance (I've an entry on him in PR at the moment) - his labours are representations of the ritual tasks undertaken by the sacrificial king, who dies at the end of the old year. he had a child by each of 50 daughters - the number of women in a college of priestesses.

Well, I'm off to bed soon, hoping for a good nights sleep.

and birthday !

Dear Anna,

Kenneth loved the story. After I had read it to him, he said, 'So the needle is life?'.

I've included most of what you've given me, with the exception of the Frosh Princess, which I might be able to use in the entry on symbolism, which I'll start working on. Did you get any more about Kochey Bessmyertney? I've added a line about him, but it's a bit thin.

The bit about the skin in the Frosh Princess is a little like 'Sealskin Soulskin' from 'Women who run with the Wolves', where the man marries a seal woman. He steals her skin so that she will have to stay on land and marry him, and bit by bit, she loses her vitality. In the end, her son finds the skin, gives it back and both go off into the water and the husband never sees them again.

Not that it's of my business (well...)

But, ZSF?, i think you gave the wrong researcher the credits, U25 instead of the correct one, which would be U202024.

I just thought that misght be of interest, since the entry has now been scouted.

Please do something!

HELL

Hell, I think you're right! I'll make the amendment immediately.

See?

Glad everything worked out in the end. Maybe Anna (this one) could choose a more distinct Username to avoid that kind of confusion in the future?

BTW, aren't the italics using italics anymore?

HELL

Thanks, , I felt really honoured ´cos of the confusion - after two years of not using my English and being confused with such an h2g2 VIP. To avoid such mishaps I´ve just added Banana to my nickname. Hopefully, there will be a smiley for it soon.
What is "Tracy Island"? And as for Kochey, I´ll take a look now. The pronounciation of Baba Yaga as Yigar is OK, as almost every unstroked "A" in Russian converts to slight "E". But I think, nobody will write Baba Yigar, won´t they?

Hell: I would like to thank you for noticing the confusion.

In all the printed stories I've seen, the spelling is Baba Yaga, so I'll keep that for the heading, Anna.

I don't think anyone is going to confuse you with Anna the italic now!

I'd be very interested in more on Kochey.

Tracy Island is a toy, from the TV puppet programme 'Thunderbirds', first shown in the 1960s and now enjoying a revival. See <./>A206470</.> (you'll have to look down the list, as they're in alphabetical order.

Tracy Island is the name of the base the Thunderbirds operate from and it converts from a normal looking island to a rocket launch pad, aircraft hanger, etc.

Yes, thanks to Hell, and to you .

Dear , here we go (F. Zappa):

Some information about the origin of "Kochey", picked up from http://www.kolibry.astroguru.ru, which is a reediction of Brockhaus-Ephron Encyclopaedia.
Kochey, also written Kachey, is a tight-fisted keeper of treasuries, the same as the giants in Germanic fairy tales. He is a cannibal and also kidnaps young women.

The name Kochey comes from Turkish (there are quiet a lot of Turkish words in Russian due to the Tartar-Mongolian invasion and the neighbour connections between the Russian speakers and Turkish speakers) and means "slave" or "prisoner". The unknown author of one of the first written works in Russian "The song of Igor´s Campaign" uses "Kochey" already as a description of cunning persons. E.g. the Polovtsian Prince Konchak was termed "Kochey". There is also an old-Russian word "Koch´" for "thin", so that the Russian folk etymology contributed to the vision of a thin old man a bit like Scrooge, who breeds over his treasury.

Anna Banana

PS. Running into the bed as in four hours the little Pavel will wake up.

Dear Singing Fish, if you want to know more about Koshey and see another Babulya Yaga, try to find the fairy tale "Marya Morevna". Or I can try to translate it (with your help, of course), so we can write another entry about Russian fairy tales.
Sincerely yours