h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story?id=6417561&pageid=rs.Home&pageregion=single7
About Bill O'reilly and fox news.
I want to see the documentry Outfoxed - anybody seen it?
Fair and balanced is an absurd descriptive. Sometimes I cannot help but watch out of curiosity. It gets so bad they actually talk like they are running for office. Seems more like brain washing than spin

*************
Speaking of spin I have to wonder about this * Especialy the tiny bit about animals That is harsh. Has that ever been reported? I remember something about firecrackers and an animal mascot at a ball game.Maybe that is what they are talking about Anybody recall that story? Also included in the below site is some of the financial stuff M.Moore touches on but it has nothing to do with him(MM).

counterpunch.com (Obviously left wing and close to an election sort of article)
Astounding piece written mostly on B's Guard service years During the Viet Nam war there was a lot written about how common legislators children, powerful families escaped the draft That is why it IS important that Kerry served. I am sure he could have been situated in a nice and safe place due to his families connections. I do not recall reading about such an involved saga as this. A couple of awol periods go unaddressed but an honorable discharge is given!

************
Just wondering if persons against both legal abortions and stem cell research are also against using artificial or invitro(sp) fertilization?

IVF has probably bothered me more through the years but I know I have a bit of an odd perspective on these topics In short, I want all legal but using stem cells bothers me the least.


************
1.8 Billion and counting.....
over paid or paid for unaccounted services(so far) to Halliburton. Why isn't that on the news every hour, every day?

Darn meant to change the subject in the first post

The storms off the coast of Florida should be Bonnie and Clyde!
My brother is in south Florida (East coast) so should be ok . I hope all goes pretty well for everybody down there

hi abbi,a friend told me today that they are expecting a hurricane in florida,I have heard nothing about it,and i know i can trust you to tell me about the news reports....is it true,and whereabouts.xx

<>

I hope you will all be all right, abbi, you and your family.

Thanks.
I am a long way from there but my brother is not.
They had everybody evacuating move to the center of the state So all the people are sitting in the middle of it because the storm changed directions.

I saw something in our local newspaper that 2 million people had to be evacuated, and that there were winds of 235 km/hr. Anyone in the area has my heartfelt sympathy - I do hope your brother and his family are all right, abbi...

Hi abbi! Just to answer your question:

Discussing abortion, stem cell research, in vitro fertilisation and so forth, for me entails discussing philosophy, specifically ethics, and people need to realise that different philosophies are possible and it is NOT possible right now to clearly demonstrate the 'truth' of any specific position. People on both sides of this issue act as if their own positions could be established as the one and only Truth.

My own philosophy of ethics start with a respect for life - ALL life. I don't believe in 'human rights' because in my view, if there really are such things as 'rights', it would not be humans alone who would have them. All living things would have some rights, and sometimes the rights of other things might conflict with human rights, or even supersede human rights. I also see the possibility of rights that are applicable to group entities. But with all 'rights' in my view we should start out by being aware that these things do not exist in their own right ... they are things created by us, and we can modify them or un-create them.

Actually my own philosophy doesn't allow for a concept such as 'Fundamental/Universal Rights' at all since the Universe doesn't owe anybody anything.

When we talk about 'rights' we are talking about *deciding* to act accorting to certain standards of fairness/rightness towards other entities that we *decide* to regard as important.

If, to you, other humans are totally unimportant then, to you, they don't have any rights. If, to you, other humans are as important as yourself, then, to you, they have 'rights' equivalent to your own ... meaning that what you consider to be fair treatment of yourself, you also consider to be fair treatment of them.

Well, to me, all living things are important, but not all of them are equally important *to me*. I don't yet see how it could be objectively established how important every kind of living being 'really is' in an absolute sense. But I think that this could be used as a standard: aim to regard living things as being as important as it would be possible for yourself. Try to accord all living things as many rights as you possibly can.

In my own case, I try to respect the life of every living thing and not kill anything unnecessarily. But I do have a 'scale' of killing in which killing an insect is not quite as 'wrong' as killing a bird or a mammal. I do occasionally kill insects, for instance worms and weevils infesting my plants. But I do not like killing them! I would rather *not have to* kill them. I would be very happy to find a way of keeping them away without killing them and I'm constantly trying to figure out such ways.

My ethics are not perfect! I am probably doing things that are 'wrong' according to other people's ethics. I'm constantly doing things that are 'not quite right' even with regard to my own ethics. Many people will be able to tear my ethics to shreds with their criticism ... but still I'm constantly trying to improve my ethics as well as my conduct.

In my view, Science can answer questions relevant to ethics, but maybe not quite yet. For instance Science cannot right now tell us just how aware different species are, how much pain they feel, and what kinds of Wills they have. We *think* right now that insects don't have a very strong consciousness, do not feel much pain, and don't really have a particularly strong will to live. But suppose one day Science could actually investigate and observe thoughts, feelings and minds of beings other than humans, and we were able to determine that insects have quite intense feelings and awareness and so forth ... then, certainly, we would respect them more and be more hesitant to kill them without very good reason.

But anyways in my own case ...

I wouldn't even kill an insect without very good reason. I think an unborn human baby is more important than in insect and therefore the reason for killing an unborn human baby need to be even better ... a heck of a lot better in fact ... than the reason for killing an insect.

This doesn't mean I'm 'against abortion'. I think it should be legal. BUT I would like it if we managed to reduce the numbers of abortions to the absolute minimum possible.

I think we should aim to improve methods of birth control as much as we can. The embrio after all didn't ask to be brought into existence! It was brought into existence by other people and theirs are the responsibility for its existence... except in rape where the woman does not bear the responsibility for bringing it into existence because she had no say in it.

But anyways... another possibility I see is to, one day, be able to remove an unborn embrio, even at a very early stage of development, from a womb without killing it, and keep it alive in an artificial womb and allow it to be 'born' and raise it... the baby is therefore 'aborted' but not killed, and it is raised by 'the state' or whomever else is in the position to take care of it, so it can later go into an orphanage or a foster home or something like that.

So anyways ... I think there's nothing wrong with in vitro fertilisation. I'm very wary of stem cell research because I see it as experimentation on humans. I don't like experiments on humans or animals where the wellbeing of the humans/animals experimented on isn't given a high priority. Also, stem cell research opens the door to cloning and genetic modification of humans, possibly culminating in a new eugenics movement that could lead to all sorts of incredible messes. Again I am not against cloning or even eugenics 'per se', but I think such a thing needs to be approached with extreme, extreme, extreme forethought and responsibility and that is *not* happening right now.

for your brother and all the people caught up in the hurricane.

My brother & his wife just came back from a fortnight's holiday in Florida.

...Hi Abbi! ing thru h2g2,hopefully will be coherent enough to leave a thought or 2-as I`m

Hi and bye python
Hope that eye problem sorts itself out!

Thanks for that post Willem.

So would you have a problem with using IVF?
The lines of philosophy on that one still confuse me.
There are choices made, in order to create life artificially, you might not normally have to or want to make.

*I would personally allow all the above choices and stem cell research with restrictions. The people I have personally known that did IVF did not agree with a complete ban on abortion or a ban on stem cell research.

I am curious about respecting all life at all stages. How do you reconcile the choice of IVF ?(or do you) Maybe there is a life line (sort of a pun)I am not aware of, I am not that knowledgable. Do people chose IVF also sometimes want to ban the other medical procedures given the choice?
*confusing part*

I probably should just hush up because it could be a can of worms.
I never see it discussed and wonder about it all
Probably just keep wondering....

"raised by 'the state' or whomever else is in the position to take care of it, so it can later go into an orphanage or a foster home or something like that."

I do not like the sound of that. If we humans had figured out how to raise children well "by the state" orphanage or a foster home ( all the same - the state) then maybe. We are light years away from thatThat has not been done on the whole. You see success and love in spots but it is a very hard road for a child without long term consistent love given by one or more parents. Even then it is hard in many cases.

..by again,
I`ve never brought this up-& probably shouldn`t-it`s 4am, & I`m definitely
But I`ve always thought that the so-called 'right-to-life-its'should
support as many unwanted children as their income permits.To me,there is nothing more tragic than the horrid abuse un-wanted kids encounter.
The result of such a life is to perpetuate the misery onto their kids,as it`s the only way a previously abused adult knows.
,definitely

>there is nothing more tragic than the horrid abuse un-wanted kids encounter.<

Indeed. I couldn't agree with you more.

I agree with Willem and with Abbi on most points, both of you make interesting arguments for your views and have made well-informed decisions. I respect that a lot in a person!

Personally, I am 100% for stem cell research. It could help SO many people, perhaps even myself and quite a few of my dear friends.

As for terminations, I support a woman's right to choose wholeheartedly. I believe, to some extent, that if two people are involved in a relationship and a pregnancy results, the "father"'s opinion should be taken into consideration. But even then, the woman is the one who has to run the risks, sacrifice her health, and bear the stigma so often still placed upon so-called "single" mothers. (I know personally quite a few married women who are for all intents and purposes raising their children on their own. What difference a legal document makes, I've no idea).

Not sure how I feel about IV fertilization. To what extent can an IV embryo be genetically modified or altered to suit the whims of a parent? How many IV embros have been destroyed by prospective parents based on gender, etc.? These are the things I need to know to make an informed decision as to how I feel about it.

Of all three, IV fertilization is the only "iffy" issue mentioned here.

Abbi, glad to hear your brother is okay. My dad sent me an email, my family is fine as well. Their arbor blew down in the back yard due to 55 mph winds, but the house is intact and everyone safe and sound.

Hi PC
You have some of the same questions I do about IVF.
I am not sure how much law is written on it either.
Seems inconsistent the same issues cause concern in isolated ( not of IVF) techniques or procedures.

Glad your family is safe PC.
*wants access to some stem cells*

Hiya everybody!

Just to make it clear, I think abortions should be legal. Just as I think divorce should be legal. But just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good. It would be best if it could be avoided, not be necessary in the first place. But if it's necessary it should be available as an option.

Well another thing ... I *would* prefer if abortions be done as quickly as possible. Even after just eight weeks the embrio has already become a fetus with a very human appearance. Does anybody here think abortions should be restricted to a certain number of weeks of pregnancy?

A lot of this hinges on definitions of life and humanity. When does a human life really begin? The thing is this is a matter of philosophy and not easily determined by science. When does the life of an unborn human start to 'matter'? Or does it only start to matter at birth? Or, maybe, sometime *after* birth? What are the criteria we use?

I don't claim that I have the Truth. I only try to have a consistent personal philosophy and I allow other people to have other philosophies. What I don't like, is if people bash each other over the head with their respective philosophies, trying to beat them into submission. I don't like it at all that issues like this become 'politicised' to the extent that each side can only shout dogma and insults at the other side.

Well onto unwanted children. I really *would* want to support unwanted and orphaned children! I would do so right now. The problem is that it is difficult for a single man to adopt children in this country. I do intend to get married. And then I want some children of my own but *also* I want to adopt children. I would keep adopting children up into my old, old age. As many as I could care for.

The thing is that there *are* lots and lots of unwanted and/or orphaned children anyways! South Africa is absolutely overflowing with them. Unwanted children are born, and many children are left alone when their parents die of AIDS. These children have to be cared for! The state, or somebody else, has to do it. If these systems don't work well, then we simply have to improve them so they *do* work well! Otherwise, the message is that these kids are not important either. Then it becomes OK to throw a living breathing kid in the garbage.

Well onto other matters. Before saying anything further, I'm going to do some more reading of stem-cell research, and in vitro fertilisation!