h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

nice post and run zoomer.

The original post I was responding to said "didn't the Russians win WWII?"

So it was that original post which displayed all the "monumental arrognace" to which you refer. When I replied in kind to that post, you jumped all over me. Why didn't you jump all over the original poster for making the same mistake? Was it b/c you were the one who made that post? (5954, this thread).

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

dave

*post and run*? Hardly...have a look at the middle of the previous total posts where I believe I entered the conversation. I ended posting when I encountered some people who are not willing to post published facts to back their statements and are not williing to read other peoples proofs. It started with people stateing that Libya gave up their WMD because of the Iraq invasion, when even Bush admitted it was negotiation. It ended with blind revisionism and a lack of desire to even read the truth.

Of course I know I made the post, if you took the time to look at even the recent posts it was a joke over the fact that few Americans realise that their contribution to WWII was not the be-all and end-all to the war. I backed up my statement when you said:

*of course YOU did, zoomer, of course you did. And didn't you also beleive that the Jew's were massacred in upstate NY, and their remains secretly moved to Germany by the US govt?

dave*

I backed it up by posting casualty figures and statements by people who have nothing to lose by lying, just as I have for other statements I have made. Even though your post was insulting and full of innuendo, I managed to contain my anger, although you may doubt me.

If you want cheerful, happy news about the US, it is in that thread as well- try 495 or 496 (Canadian compliments, btw). Over and over again on that thread it has been stated that the thread is not about US citizens being evil, bad, or worse than the rest of the population. It is talking about generalisations and some political policies out of the generally good whole that is the USA.. One of those generalisations is that *lots of* Americans have revisionist views. Your sarcasm and offhand remarks would indicate that if you don't have those views, you are willing to ignore those who do. I'm not.

So go back to your thread and talk about how wonderful the US is and be blind to any possible flaws that might exist. You and Oetzi should create a mutual admiration society and invite Dubya. He needs friends right now, his ratings are down. Gee Dave, do you think it's a left-wing media conspiracy that he's down in the polls? Or could it be that he is finally being caught out?

Here's how much your disapproval concerns me:

Good joke. I was joking too, can't you tell? Still, I think you still need to berate yourself for revising history, and ignoring all the non-Soviet contributions that went into winning WWII.

dave

Sorry for the delay RL (in the form of my laundry) intruded.

My post, as you might have guessed from the *lettuce leaf* was humourous. I responded to Hot Fat's post #3942, then Gradient's, and Happy Dude's, etc.. Your response seemed antagonistic, reactionary, revisionist, and simplistic. It was the twig on the dromedary I'm afraid- if you meant it to be humour I did not see it. If that is the case then I apologise, but I'm not sure *how* it was supposed to be funny. Attacking me is not attacking my arguments, only facts will do that. If you were frustrated with me and my arguments, I could understand an attack, I have become personal more than once here on Hootoo, although I have tried to be subtle and/or reasonable when I do. Or perhaps, as in the next sentence, sarcastic and resigned.

Off you go now to the sandbox to play with the toy soldiers, I'm too tired of explaining myself.

I think it's a cop out to claim something is a joke after the fact. So no, my post wasn't a joke. It was a joke for me to claim it was a joke, or it was me demonstrating the cop out technique. take your pick.

*lettuce leaf it alone*?

Yesssss, that is obviously a serious post, which I was trying to turn into a joke...

*Cop out*? You're copping out of reality, son. If you seriously believe that the US won the war either by itself or as the major contributer, you are a bigger equine derriere than I had first assumed.
Disagree?
Give me facts, not just opinions.

you call that a joke, pops? Wow, you must really knock em dead at open mic night. That's a real ripper.

Believe whatever you want. I'm not a historian, and I haven't studied WWII yet. When I get to it, I'll prove you wrong. Until then, enjoy this moment.

dave

oohh, Dave, I'm shakin'

So let's get it right, I'm supposed to wait here until you know what the hell you're talking about? Nice come back, what are you, twelve?

No, don't wait. Just be content in the knowlege that you're wrong, I'll prove it.

*..be content in the knowledge that you're wrong..*

Why on earth would I take comfort in being wrong??



In any case, I have already put my case forward- you refuse to believe that the US was not the major contributer to the war effort during WWII. If you choose to ignore statistics, perhaps I could introduce my father's war record, he was a Lt. Commander in the Royal Navy almost exclusively in the North Atlantic. His was one of a handfull of ships that liberated Norway (the only country to be liberated by the Navy). He also ran convoy duty to Russia. All with no help from any country other than Britain and Russia. Would personal recollection convince you? Or would you like to have only US sources for the information?

The fact that you refuse to believe that the post which overstated the case wasn't based on humour is an even more troubling point. I know chemists have a sense of humour, my step-mother is one (Biochemistry). I guess you just don't.

The whole point was that very often US citizens tend to view WWII as their very own war and revise historical fiction and *common sense* to suit. I could list dozens of films for instance that overlook the rest of the Allies' efforts and novels and articles have not fared better. The US is not alone in this, don't get me wrong. Australians have long been ignored by the Brits in popular media to do with the European War, as have Canadian troops. This is not to say that actual historical texts ignore the contribution of many countries, only the popular media and fiction. The fact that you took the facts I posted from independent sources so hard shows you have some of the same unproveable ideas about what happened as do those fictions. Proving something is difficult, I agree, and proving an negative is even harder, but if you won't even take independent sources with statistics, what will you take? Here are some more sources if you wish, a wide variety.

http://www.onpower.org/history_wwii.html

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:IsHgTZMDay8J:ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Political-Science/17-40American-Foreign-Policy--Past--Present--and-FutureFall2002/AFF4122F-51D4-49F9-AF77-08397E9D69E1/0/ww2.pdf+US+world+war+II+revisionism&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Here is a particularly interesting one- a site for students who are given only battles and conflict that the US had a part in, with no mention of any other country other than Germany, Italy, and Japan.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/researchtools/researchstarters/wwii/
This is just the kind of arrogance that I find in my line of work, where when I covered the Olympics the US was only interested in events they had a chance in and I was told that if Canada won it was as good as the US winning.

http://feedthefish.org/writing/goodwar.html

And another interesting one. Canada has given every survivor of Japanese internment a monetary payment and a public apology. Have you heard anything about the US doing that? Not surprised- http://www.expows.com/CFIR%20History.htm

And finally, here is an online resource for you, simple and interactive. It is a US source so you should find it unimpeachable. It's a sort of interactive history lesson, so you can *learn* the facts:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/20centry.htm

I mean no venom with any of this, I just find that people who make statements that arer unsuported prove the old adage *Common sense isn't*

ok. How many royal navy vessels were deployed in the Pacific theater? How many French? How many Russian? I have heard personal recollections from MY grandfather, who was in the US Navy in THAT theater of operation. Look, I maybe I misunderstood your original post. Fact is, if I did, why didn't you point that out first rather than attacking me?

dave

What the f**k has the Pacific theatre have to do with the argument, we are talking about the entire war here and once again I say that statistically, morally, and politically the US did not have the majority of the effect on the Axis. If you want to get into a p!ssing war about our ancestors, go ahead, I'll unsubscribe to this thread as well. Get your head out of your @ss and listen to what is being BACKED UP here, not what is being claimed.

As to who attacked who, have another look at the backlog. That is tha little group of dots off to the side, you may learn something. What was the very first reply to my post? You:

*of course YOU did, zoomer, of course you did. And didn't you also beleive that the Jew's were massacred in upstate NY, and their remains secretly moved to Germany by the US govt?

dave*

Gee Dave, does that sound anything like *What did you mean by that post, are you making a statement or just trying to personally p!ss me off?* To me it sounds like an ignorant, arrogant, sarcastic attack. Gee Dave, I wonder what other people think, do you care?

well, it definitely was one of disbelief. It doesn't say that the US was the major contributor though...that was something you added/created.

You're last post also clearly indicates that the pacific theater had nothing to do with defeating the axis. Hmm, that's good to know, I guess all those people who died in the Pacific was unrelated to WWII. Thanks for clearing that up.

dave

*the pacific theater had nothing to do with defeating the axis*

Show me one line, one WORD that says that. I can't believe you can make up these things as we go along. Give me a break, even better, give yourself one and show me ONCE were I said that. Instead of making this stuff up, consider that everything each of us say is not thrown away but is stored. You can't lie and get away with it here, son. You can't even stretch the truth.

Does your life include anything but black and white? READ the backlog, interpret it as you may, but the fact remains, you acted out of anger and uninformed belief.

Back up what you say or shut the f**k up.

btw- Here's a litttle hint as to constructive dialogue. TALK, don't REACT. If you have something to say, be damn sure you have some kind of fact or facts to back it up. If you have an opinion say something like *IMHO* or else use humour. These blind, outrageous claims you make are nothing but that unless you back them up. Saying something doesn't make it so, as Dubya will find out very soon, *IMHO*. If you want to attack someone, I would suggest you don't try to make statements that have no basis in reality or proof.

You know formulae, you know the rigorous demands of science. Can't you see that statements made here need at least a modicum of proof, just as those do? It isn't even as rigorous, one or two sources of data will do. For god's sake, I am willing to settle on ONE source other than your ego and beliefs.

First line of your post #12

"What the f**k has the Pacific theatre have to do with the argument, we are talking about the entire war here and once again I say that statistically, morally, and politically the US did not have the majority of the effect on the Axis."

The US was the only ally to have major efforts in the pacific theater against axis member Japan. This contradicts your statement above. It's that simple. Read your own post about reacting.

dave

Yes, the US had almost exclusive sway over the Pacific Theatre, yes the Russians had almost exclusive sway over the Eastern Front. That is not what we are talking about, we are talking about the entire war. Jumping over to one section of the war works for your argument only if the US lost more troops, committed more resources, and had a bigger effect on the whole war in that area. They didn't. If I reacted it was to your complete change of subject.

btw, I found another site that might interest you:

http://artzia.com/History/WWII/

*The Soviets bore the brunt of World War II; the West did not even open up a second front in Europe until D-Day, apart from the invasion of Italy. More Soviet citizens died during World War II than those of all other countries combined. Approximately 21 million Soviets, among them 7 million civilians, were killed in "Operation Barbarossa", the German invasion of the Soviet Union. Civilians were rounded up and burned or shot in many cities conquered by the Nazis. Since the Slavs were considered "sub-human", this was ethnically targeted mass murder.*

It also details the admittedly lesser contribution of Australia, Britain, and others in the Pacific including:

*On February 3, 1945 Japan's longtime enemy Russia agreed to enter the Pacific Theatre conflict against Japan and was soon making advances in Japanese-occipeied Manchuria.*

The home site is http://www.artzia.com/ and is a US site with no particular agenda, it's actually an online encyclopedia.

These quotes are again not meant to lessen the impact that the US had but once again, how many sources do you want?

The Japanese were basically the other half of the axis (not including italy). The US defeated them. So defeating half the axis wasn't a major contribution though.

http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/stats.html

http://au.geocities.com/thefortysecondinww2/level2/asstd/stats-wwii.htm

Japan-
WWII population- 72,200,000
WWII military forces- 9,100,000
WWII military deaths- 1,740,000
WWII civilian deaths- 393,400

*Basically the other half of the axis*
In what way- population, military materiel, deaths? Your *argument* is basically *if A is perhaps B then B might be C.*

Once again, back up your suppositions with something other than your beliefs.