h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

" If there is one thing worse than going to Hell..."

How can ANYTHING be worse than going to Hell?

I mean, pretty much by definition, God created Hell to be the worst fate it could possibly be. That way, all those people who he chose not to save would suffer as much as is possible. Never mind that there was never anything they could have done to affect their fate either way - God either "authors faith" or he does not, and the lesson of all Real (non-nominal) Christians is that good works, praying etc. count for nothing and cannot affect his choice. No - those who lack luck go to the worst fate possible, end of story.

Surely suggesting that there's something "worse than going to Hell", suggests God somehow did an imperfect job of creating it, doesn't it?

There seems to me to be something odd about the eternal torment in Hell. God, being benevolent, shouldn't wish it upon anyone; if you disagree and say that He has His reasons, Satan being a rebellious fallen angel shouldn't wish to accede to his demands; and the countless billions who are said to be incarcerated there certainly don't want it to be bad. So who exactly DOES wish Hell upon the "unbelievers" who are "fools"? Why, the answer is obvious. The kind of person who likes to imagine that an omnipresent and omnibenevolent supernatural all-powerful being in the sky would have created the universe and all that is in it merely to give them and a select few others an eternity of happiness while subjecting everyone else to an eternity of pain.

Mal,

God is good, but all human beings are wicked by nature, and He has stated that NO sin of ANY description is going into His presence. Those who have not found Christ and followed Him through their lives CANNOT be delivered from sin any other way. Hence, when they die, they go to Hell to await Judgement Day before Christ, followed by eternal fire; God's wrath against sin, forever. He has given His Son's life to save men from sin. If they prefer sin and live for it, as virtually all do, then they must have the wages of sin.

"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ."

It is not a case of those in Hell not wanting to be bad, they are bad, congenitally. God's standard is utter holiness and without Christ no one can reach it.

No Christian wishes Hell on anyone. They, with God, wish all men to come to Christ and repent, but they won't.

Justin,
How could a perfect being (ie, God,) create something that is not only imperfect but totally evil?
By sin, do you mean any of the sins from the Bible?
When/where did he state this?
What about people who convert only a little while before their deaths?
But God is the one who chooses *what* the wages of sin are. He could simply have made it a kind of Purgatory, rather than suffering.
What about the problem of having a holy and good mind, but an imperfect body? Most of the sins in the Bible are automatic primate/human imperatives - it is within our nature to covet, as ambition, and it is within our nature to sexually desire people who are not married to us.

Mal,

The simple answer is that He didn't. It has been corrupted.

Never mind 'sins', they are only the fruit of indwelling sin in all human beings. I was there too once, you understand, I am not pointing fingers. Sin is a power that lives in all human beings which produces sins. Sometimes they are gross sins, like sodomy, feminism, adultery paedophilia,murder, etc., and sometimes relatively minor things. You know you have sin in you if you do not actually know God, as sin cuts you off from the Person who made you, and you cannot hear Him speak to you.

Depends on what you mean by 'conversion'. There is the genuine, and the false. Assuming someone is soundly born again it is academic when it happens.

God does not 'choose' what the wages of sin is, as such. Any more than you choose the result of jumping of a high building. It is inevitable; no sin of any description is going into Heaven, or onto the new Earth. He is not going to have a repeat of what happened here, and this cesspit we all live in today.

Purgatory does not exist, it is only found in the Catholic religion. It does not appear in the Bible.

There is not such thing as a pure mind, and impure body. Even if you could strain to be good, and obey the Law of God you could not. It is indeed nature to sin. Hence 'you must be born again', as Jesus said (John.3.)

Justin

So you are saying that things which are normally derided as sins are just manifestations of the underlying sin of not knowing your creator? Hmm, interesting theory.
Does it matter if someone does not manifest their Sin in a minor or major sin, but is still not a Christian? I find it hard to believe that God would punish us even though we have led a good and fruitful life. After all, one of the proofs for God and for the external world is that God always gives us a way out of a situation or problem, and it is our fault if we do not recognise it.

"God does not choose..."
But God makes his own rules, does he not?
New Earth?

Purgatory was just an example, never mind.
How could I get into Heaven, theoretically speaking, if even if I lead the best life a human (Christ excepted, of course...) has ever led, do everything the Bible says I should, but I have been born with a sceptical mind and thus cannot "know" God?

Mal,

Not quite. See 'The Parable of the Apple Tree' on my page. All are born sinners; they cannot but sin against God, even if they wanted to. Even by religion ABOUT Jesus you cannot stop sinning. Hence Jesus said, "You must be born again."

It does not matter if sin is not manifesting now, and only has in minor ways in the past, no. The issue is 'are you a child of God, or a child of the devil' (all are born children of the devil). ONLY those who are born again and have had a new nature installed in them are the Lord's.

God is not punishing people 'even though they have led a good and fruitful life. The issue is that they are sinnners, and nothing to do with Him, they do not belong to His family. He says, "There is none righteous, no, not one." There is no such thing as a human being who is good, and no such thing as a human being who lives a NATURAL life which is 'fruitful' in His eyes. This is His Earth. The terms of salvation are HIS. He made this world, and He owns it. (That is why you see the Satanists develope the notion of the 'pure chance' theory of 'evolution'. It divests God of His absolute right to rule and reign here in men's minds.)

I would not agree with your assertion; 'After all, one of the proofs for God and for the external world is that God always gives us a way out of a situation or problem, and it is our fault if we do not recognise it.' That is completely contrary to the anything the Lord Jesus said, and any teaching all through the Bible.

Jesus said, "I am THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life, NO MAN comes to the Father but by ME." There is NO salvation by good works. If you try that route you will end up as wicked as an Anglican bishop. Salvation is a direct work of God. NO MATTER how a good a life you try to lead, (and you would find it utterly impossible to do what the Bible says, your nature will not allow you), you will never please God. You must be born again, read John ch.3.

Never mind what your mind thinks. No can savingly believe until God be pleased to author the faith in you. When the Bible speaks about believing it does not mean what mere ment think 'believing' to be. It means God's faith, which is His gift to all whom He is saving.

This is the omnipotent, almighty God we're talking about, right? The guy who set the whole thing up how *He* wanted it?

You can't have your cake and eat it too, Justin.

Noggin

Noggin,

You have not understood what I said. God made all things, yes, BUT it was corrupted soon afterwards by your master who was given the power by Adam, inadvertantly.

Once again, Justin talks himself out of a job.

Only God can author saving faith. No amount of good works, reading the Bible, praying, or listening to the dronings of "real" Christian "ministers" makes a jot of difference. God picks you, or he doesn't, and there's nothing you can do about it. You might be a lying, hypocritical, fornicating adulterer - like Justin - but that doesn't matter. Equally, you might be a compassionate, rational, considerate person, and yet your creator condemns you to an eternity of torment.

Yeah, right.

If God controlled the universe, and the laws of cause-and-effect hold, and God is omniscient, God could have predicted that Adam would empower Satan. Why? How did the original corruption occur?

You fail to understand theodicy, Mal.

God may be Absolutely Omnipotent, but that doesn't mean he can do anything.

God may be Absolutely Omniscient, but that doesn't mean he knows everything.

God may be Absolutely Benevolent, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do things that are pointlessly sadistic.

You gotta think outside the straitjacket of language and logic.

Noggin

Noggin
!
Only the last line made Justin sound like a hippy. Whom he possibly despises.

>Thought: It is of course possible to be absolutely knowledgeable but still not know everything, though<

Actually, I am just trying to understand Justin.
Whaaaaaaat? It's possible... isn't it?
At least he's internally coherent.
It's just that some of us don't understand him.

Mal,

Your misunderstanding is founded on another. Almighty God does have all power BUT he gave man free will. Until you die, He will NEVER override your free will, or you have ceased to be a sentient being and have become a slavish robot.

Post your death you will lose all power and you will do as you told, you will have no choice.

Sure, the Lord God knew it would happen, but He could not make a man with free will; someone who is not a slave, without giving him free will.

Justin

I presume that last sentence should have a comma rather than a semi-colon?

But it was still God's decision, knowing what the outcome would be, to give man free will.

Free will and omniscience together are not internally coherent, Mal. Is God omniscient by extrapolation, or by direct apprehension?

Noggin

I meant that I'm sure that it all works in his head, it's just language and logic and our relentless scepticism that makes it seem so silly.

Justin, I've got no doubt that you're not reading this, but just in case you are, you may enjoy this site:
http://www.thetruthforyouth.com/
They share your views.

Mal,

I did see it as I glimpsed the topic had popped up, from ages ago, in my unsubscribed conversations box.

There are loads of sites like that, and umpteen projects run by churches along the same lines. It is a complete waste of time, as that is not what Christ wants them to do. This is what we call 'behaviour modification'; the attempting to get those who are non or nominal Christians to live by Christian standards, they cannot. They must be born again. You do not have to teach someone who has been born again to leave sin and filth alone, as a holiness principle is in their heart.

J.

Ah, so rebirth must occur spontaneously? I see.

Which brings up the age-old question of "what is the point of Justin on this site?". Nothing.

Shame he can't dissapear in a puff of logic too.

Ste