h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Salut, mon vieux

Comment vas? I have just read your 'Pablo' piece in AWW and made some comments.

I am also living in France, as you may guess from the title. We may have more in common than that, too. Who knows.

Just a quick note, anyway, to say hi and that I hope to see more of your stuff in AWW in the future. (adverbials - place -> time)

Seeya
Spiff

Hello Spaceman Spiff,
So we share the experience of living in France. A very good one for my part. I came here in 1990, much like a migrating bird seeking temporary sanctuary only to find myself building a nest. Now I'm a permanent fixture. I love it here.
I'm delighted that I've come across you. I was beginning to think that if one didn't write about: condoms, spitting, known recipes, known social graces, known historical stories, straight biographies, one was wasting one's time contributing.
Now I have discovered your writings and the window is open to let fresh air in. I teach English as a foreign language and would be delighted if you'd permit me to use your articles on RP and Estuary English straight as you've written them; so many adults coming from the 'French English teacher' regime at school are convinced the only good English is 'Proper English' that a voice other than mine might help convince them (1) to keep the charm of their own accent (2) that if they insist on only learning from RP tapes they will learn to understand just 2% of English people. I get the feeling that you're a teacher as well although you don't mention it.
Thanks again for making contact.
Gaston
Here's my e-mail address
[email protected]

Salut Gaston

Thanks for replying here and over on the thread with your article. I haven't much time right now for lengthy replies but I was glad you appreciated my comments on your article.

Hope to see you around

Spiff

That goes? Bonne année, et surtout, bonne santé!

Does everyone say the health bit down your way too?

I have been trawling the murky depths of my conv list and have dredged up this thread. I think it should be on your page somewhere, so hopefully you should pick it up again. That, after all, is what threads are for.

I have revised my RP piece somewhat and I would be glad of any feedback you may have. I've cut out some of the stuff that was more illustrative of regional variation because I felt that it was a separate subject in itself.

I have also rewritten it to avoid repeating myself.

You won't be able to 'compare and contrast', but if you find time to read it I would be interested to hear what you had to say.

I have offered it as part of a Uni project and that means I can't put it into PR - which means no feedback. I will stick it up in the WW and see whether it is good enough to wake the dead, but I'm not a big believer in resurrection at the best of times.

Anyway, I propose we try to keep this thread as an ongoing link and stay in touch. Whaddaya say?

Seeya
Spiff

Hello Spiff, Yes, I think it's a great idea to keep in touch through this thread.
As to your article on RP I've already said how much I enjoyed it without actual commenting on its contents; now that you've asked for that I'll try and say something useful.
I presume we are still talking about the original as I've chased around a bit to find a revised version but have failed to do so. Being Gaston I'm never sure whether this is due to some error on my part or that the revised edition is still work-in-progress.

Anyway, I agree largely with what you have to say about the origins, uses and abuses of RP and you write about it most interestingly.
It is I believe the first example of accent being deliberately created as a class barrier. When between 1250 and 1350 French was replaced as the language of the court and 'society' by English the only people the gentry could learn it from were the ordinary people who had been speaking and developing it all the time Once having learnt it they then had to distinguish themselves from these "peasants " by speaking it differently. I think that that was the beginning of a form of RP.

The only aspect of what you have written that I'm a bit doubtful about is that I think you may be overstressing the use of it by today's trained teachers of English as a Foreign Language. English has become so important in commerce, and social interaction so important for building that commerce, conversational (rather than strict business English) is becoming vital and this means understanding regional accents and speaking interestingly. I can think of no worse punishment than to have to spend a night in a pub with an RP accented companion...yawn; it is so sleep making to listen to language without accent.
I tell people here to keep their French accent as long as they are being understood. 'Keep looking at their eyes' I say ' if you see them clouding over, watch out, otherwise keep going.' Seriously, what is being promoted today is a vision beyond the classroom to the real world outside of it and those people who spend time and money learning English and are only exposed to RP by teacher speak and tapes not only get a shock, but are disappointed and annoyed, when they find they are completely at a loss in understanding everyday conversation.
It is true that clarity on the part of the teacher is essential but this applies more to when instructions and explanations are being given than when a classroom conversation is underway.
I don't know if you agree with what I say and I stress that there is no official line on this but I train a very wide range of students from practically bi-lingual to those struggling to learn it for travelling, and they all want 'to learn it how it is'.(that doesn't mean they like difficult tapes; they rail against them and any time there is an RP accent they say 'Why can't you have all your tapes like that')

I would love to use your article for discussion in my classes and if you feel like sending it to me when it's finished I'd be delighted to give you any feedback I get.

Yes, here we do say 'surtout, bonne santé' and it is comforting because when we feel healthy at the moment it's said, we think it something that is possible to experience all year.
Best regards,
Gaston

Hi folks - you have both caught my eye and I apologise for gatecrashing this otherwise prpivate conversation. I don't teach English as a forieign language. I tried, but I am not a teacher, and all the evening classes I took over dried up after the first term, because I can't do it. However, the subject of languages etc., fascinates me all the more, and I am deeply involved with them.

It is my opinion, too, that an accent is not of a disadavantage, in fact a fella having an accent - or even better, dialect - is a real turn-on, if you ask me!

As statistics would no doubt prove, more people speak English with an American accent than with a British one, so there is no reason to be snobbish about that either (there is still a lot of that about.)

Whoops - must go. Hubby is nagging to go shopping, and I haven't written the list yet. See y'all around.

Hiya,

No need to apologise for speaking up. We have 'met' before, if I'm not very much mistaken. I think we can consider ourselves formally introduced!

Sorry I never got anything back to you about the Euro in France. I genuinely meant to.

As I sometimes say to myself, I must be on the road to hell if my intentions are anything to go by. What do we all make of our shiny new coins, then? I am still getting rid of Francs, so I haven't made much use of the Euros yet. It all seems to be passing off pretty smoothly here though.

Did you read my RP entry? If not, please don't feel that this is a 'demand' to, but equally feel free to read and comment if you like. I'm not going to put in PR at least for a while coz it is down to go into an English Language Project. If either of you two are interested in that, it's here:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A583229

I am not in any way against regional accents or any kind of variation (grammar, vocab, etc), and I love to listen out for them. I don't know about a 'turn-on' () but I certainly wouldn't want everyone talking in the same bland accent.

I take your point, Gaston, about 'being prepared', but surely you won't attempt to teach a student to speak with some British regional accent, for instance? You see what I mean. Yes, I see that it can be beneficial to be able to recognise regional variations but equally I feel that RP is considered the 'standard' pronounciation *taught* to non-native speakers.

As far as US/Brit English goes, I naturally 'prefer' my own side of the pond but I would never try to suggest there is any objective advantage. Often, the contrary is probably true. It rather depends what use you will make of the language afterwards, with whom and *where*. I assume that the basis of the student's accent will be the teacher's accent, certainly in terms of US/Brit (perhaps less so with regional British variations.

Phew, that was not all intended to sound quite so technical as it looks now. Sorry about that.

Seeya
Spiff

Hello Spiff,

Of course I don't try to teach my students to speak with an English regional accent. It would be virtually impossible for them to do so without living for some considerable time in the particular region. I'm happy (and they're delighted) if they can converse easily with a distinct 'French' accent while speaking perfectly understandable English. I really don't think it's enough to say it's 'useful' to understand a regional as opposed to an RP accent. It's absolutely vital, if you can't understand you can't respond and only something like 3% of British people speak RP.
You could perhaps add a little interest to your project on the English Language by investigating why in the whole of North America there are fewer regional accents than almost one county in England.

"Keep those aspidistras flying".
Gaston

This post has been removed.

What was so terrible about Post 9 then?

Hi Gaston,

Howyadoin'?

Seems from elsewhere that post 9 had a link on it. Not to worry.

Seeya
Spiff

Then they would have put quote [URL removed by moderator] unquote - but left the rest of the post.

Well, I suggested that because I had a look around Gaston's page recently in a bid to see where he's got to, and read something about having tried to send me a text from The Economist. He said it had been moderated. Perhaps he c & p-ed the text directly. ?

Anyway, wie geht's?

Spiff

fine. Well, not actually, but you don't want to know about that.

Do you know you have successfully managed to conceal your gender from me, even after all these weeks. Extremely clever.

One day I'll come to STrasbourg to find out.

oooooooooohhhhhhhhh Gaaaaaaaaaa-stooooooooooonnnnnnnn!!!!!!

er, hi TC. I guess you worked out the gender thing by now, eh?

but I'm really trying to get Gaston's attention here. By these subtle means...