h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I have asked you several times to stop the discussion in the prayer room. Now I am telling you that I will not continue the discussion there. If you want we can continue the discussion here but I refuse to have a room devoted to peace and Harmony used by you as a baiting ground.

Well, when using the word hell I switched into your cyberspace - in real world, of course, there is no hell. But there is a similar thing: the horror of killing people, the constant abuse of children, the suppression of a developing childs personality with a false ideology. And this hell is not of the past, it is happening every day.

I agree that life must seem like Hell to some people, but in my mind Hell is being without God not as you put it burning/rotting. Each Christian has their own view of what Hell is, it's a very personal feeling, to me it is a spiritual thing and has nothing to do with physical discomfort.

In what way do you feel that childrens personalities are suppressed by religion. I was brought up a catholic, does that mean I have identical feelings and thoughts to every other catholic child in the world. I don't think so We are all individual, there are some core points, but then there are similarities between most people.

Maybe you are one of those persons creating a hell for someone? You don't think so, as you are loving and caring christians? The killers I asked you to pray for thought that too. But they were wrong, and you don't have the guts to say that they were uttlery wrong and are rotting in hell. So you are as guilty as they were.

The killers as you call them interpreted Gods wishes in a different way to which they were intended. I do not stand here and say you are wrong in what you believe, I do not say that a muslim is wrong. It is wrong for me as I have chosen to be a catholic (and yes chosen is the right word, I left the faith when I was 14 but decided when I was 17 that althogh I may not agree with everything they teach I am definatly a christian and almost certainly a catholic) but what you choose must be right for you. If you see fit to deny Christ/God as your friend then so be it, I will not try to change your mind.

You are promoting an ideology which is built up on intolerance which may lead (and certainly has led) to wars.

As I said I have no problems with other religions that is their choice. I do not even feel that they are destined to be in Hell because God forgives those who repent, if I am right in being a Christian then when we are judged all will be given the chance to repent and worship God who will stand before us.

You are promoting an ideology which suppresses the development of children into sexually aware and happy people, which, again, may lead to wars.

So what you're saying again is that having been brought up a Catholic/Christian that I am not sexually aware or Happy? Thanks really nice comment that If by sexually aware you mean that I do not accept people of other sexual orrientations, now is the time to tell you that my best friend is bisexual and has chosen her lifelong partner to be another woman. If you are implying that I am naive then maybe you ought to check your facts before you make such accusations. I may not believe in sex before marriage but I certainly know all the facts (and most of the myths too ) As for being happy, I don't think I could be any happier. I am a healthy 19 yr old girl with a loving family and a wonderful group of friends, I did well in my A Levels and am at the end of a year out in a company who are going to sponsor me through my degree coures in electronic engineering. I have a loving Boyfriend who I have been with for 8 months and although he lives 135 miles away I still get to see him often. All the material things are there and when I need someone to turn to I know I can turn to God, my friends and family, what else should I have to be happy?

So I ask you to pray for yourselfs, and I pray for you as an humanist, to make you free and openeyed for humanism.

When I was without God, probably classed as a humanist I found life lonely, the being I had turned to about anything all my life I no longer believed was there, oh I was still happy, I still had my friends and at the time I didn't feel anything was missing, then a rough patch came, I turned to God and he took me back. I've been the humanism side of things, I'm happier the way I am now, thank you for your prayers though. Oh and as a humanist who do you pray to?
Mel

Hi Mel,

thanks for your long posting!

I'll answer your posting from top to bottom, whithout repeating the text:

You of course have the right to create your own religion, I even advise you to do that , but when speaking about christian religion you are constrained to the bible, which describes hell quite clearly as a place of pain and dispair.

Well, you are an individual person. But you restrict yourself to the way the church sees it. You are not trying different ways of life, trying what's best for you. You will raise your children without knowing what is the best way to live and what to teach. And to my knowledge of life, here I'm am not speaking of you personally, as I do not know you, someone living according the catholic church will to that wrong.

Don't you see that almost everybody claiming to be a christian "misinterprets" gods wishes? On the other hand, Human Rights are really doing good to mankind.

You are not right in that god repeatedly gives a chance to everybody. At the point of their death all non-christians are doomed to hell. And most of the christians too, btw.

Did I read you well? You are 19 and haven't had any sex in your whole life? So please don't claim to know anything about it, as you certainly don't. But you can ask me ! There are some really amazingly wonderful things in women I am of the very few and lucky ones to have come across.

Congratulations to your A levels! I once had electronics as a hobby and designed and built a small computer when I was 17. With the Z80 and 128 bytes of memory, and it worked! Did you ever solder something?

Sorry for the rough patch and glad you've made it! I don't want to talk you out of your god, I only want you to have a very suspicios eye on the church and what they demand of you. My god is a symbol for humanism. And that's our common ground, young Lady.

Hi Wonko

In my mind pain and dispair is being without God, it is not a physical pain, but a torture of the soul. The bible, especially the old testement, was written for a set of tribal folk who knew very little about a loving and forgiving God. They only knew 'gods' who were vengeful and full of anger, so this is what they portrayed him as. He gave them the ten commandments, he asked them to follow him only because before they found him they had many 'gods', he also asked them not to kill, they couldn't see that
A tribe which only understands violence will believe that anguish and despair are related to the physical side of things and that is how they will portray it to their children, who eventually will write it down in such a way, chinese whispers come to mind. Hence in my mind the Bible although a good set of guidelines must be taken carefully, the Leviticus section is a good example of this.

I have tried other ways of life, but I didn't find them fullfilling in the way that I find life now. I still feel that I am missing something, maybe it is a husband and family, I don't know but I am still looking and when I find it I will know. I will bring my children up as catholics, but I will also introduce them to my Gay friends, explain the things they need to know, they should not be too sheltered, the world is a big place and they do need common sense after all! I am only speaking for myself as I don't know how all catholics are brought up, but I seem to see most of my catholic/christian friends as extremely well rounded accepting people, no more naive about life than any of my non catholic friends. I do not judge the mormons for not drinking, I do not expect to be judged for not having sex.

I agree, no-one knows the true wishes of God, but it is quite hard to misinterpret Do not kill, Do not Lie, Do not commit adultary etc.. most of them are there for a reason though, and a lot of his other teachings were there for what was good at the time, not what is good now. Take the catholic view on contraception, when the faith was growing and child survival rate was low it was a good idea, now when most children survive and parents don't need children to look after them in quite the same way (state pensions and all that) it is a necessity, especially for those who don't follow the no sex before marriage, to stop disease and unwanted children. Who am I to bring a child into this world because I wanted to enjoy sex but also wanted to follow some outmoded religious belief

I'm not going to argue with on that bit, if that's what you believe then so be it, I believe in the God who said repent and I will forgive. "Every time he forgives he forgets he has forgiven but merely looks at us as he does his only son, innocent and pure" something my friend wanted to add on this subject.

I know about the birds and the bees, but you're right I don't know what it feels like, but I don't want to choose my husband on how good he is in bed, I want to still love him when the passion fades. Also I don't want to compare in my mind about the men I've slept with, because although everyone says thay don't I know that in the back of my mind I would and I don't want that!

We had a ZX81 with the 64k memory pack!

I have soldered lots of things, it's good fun!!

Any way lunch now, chat later!

Mel

Hi Mel,

you are thinking about many things and are open minded. Which maybe is a reason you're talking to me. Very good.

So far as I can tell you are no catholic: you yourself question the old testement and you almost don't do anything the pope wishes you to do, and I'm glad about that. So there's no point in discussing theological matters.

There's only one thing I like to add: the one very important commandment is not to murder. It has been mistranslated as not to kill. But that is wrong.

There's another mistranslation: it's not virgin Mary, but young woman Mary.

I didn't bring up the topic of sex, as I don't judge anyone on this. If you do decide to be a celibate, it's OK for me. I wonder what your boyfriend would like to do if asked?

The only thing I do is to fight for my freedom to live a life I want to, provided I don't do any harm to others. Germany so far has a legislation which allows me to live my peaceful life with my big family, in USA I'd be in prison by now. You wonder why? I am a naturalist, I like to go bathing naked. And I take pictures of my naked children, just because they are cute and it's natural. This is what christians actually do to other people, to put them in jail for being natural and having fun.

How about reading some of my entries, especially the one about partners, as you mentioned that you do not select them according to your match in bed? http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A543016

Have a good time
Wonko

I don't question the old testament I just question the way it has been interpreted. I don't agree with one of the popes feelings which is contraception, where else do we differ?

Where do you draw the line between killing someone and murder?

As for what my boyfriend would like to do, a lot of things I'm sure but he is willing to give them up for me, that makes me feel extremely special, it's nice to know someone loves you for who you are rather than how good you are to them in bed. He has never pressured me and I don't think he ever will.

In the UK there are areas where you can go bathing naked, you can take photos of your naked children as long as they aren't sexually obcene (though I doubt this) and so long as you don't publish them for the paedophils of this world It is not the Christians who do this it is the Law, it is the mothers who say they don't want their children to see naked men swimming, so men must never swim naked.

As for your entry, I've been with my boyfriend 8 months, we live 135 miles apart but I still love as much, if not more than the day I first met him I will admit it was almost love at first meet, we got on so well and he is the best thing that has happened to me in a very long time We shall see if it lasts through University though

Mel

Gay people, hell, tolerance, humanism. And we didn't even talk about evolution, computers, science and so on.

Many people have a quite romantic view on that commandment of not to murder. They think it is an absolute rule to never kill. But it is nothing special, just a law saying: don't murder your neightbur, but you may as well kill your enemies, or the fellow who just slept with your wife.

I pity your boyfriend. He is missing the best in life. May I ask you to not be so gruel and selfish to him?

These laws are made by the churches and taken over in democracy. It certainly ain't the mothers, as women don't have any problems with that.

It's good to hear you are in love! But did you meet his parents?

I have to work now, bye Mel

I think Catholisim is becoming more tollerant in general, or maybe the Catholisim I have been brought up in isn't quite the one you know.

So you don't commit murder if you kill your enemy, I don't think that would stand up in any court, even now they are still trying people for deaths caused during wars.

If you think that sex is the best thing in life then I pity you. I admit it may be one of lifes pleasures but I would hardly call it the best. As for being cruel and selfish, he has chosen to be with me, I am not making him, he is quite welcome to leave me for another girl if sex is that important to him. I'm not saying I want him to, but if sex means that much to him then I don't think we would be suited to one another....I'm glad it obviously doesn't make his world go round!

I know plenty of women who wont let their young girls anywhere near a nudist colony/beach for fear of the 'perverts' (not insinuating you are one just commenting on the common view)

His parents are lovely, they put up with me when I go to stay! they can't believe it's lasted so long, I think they've become accustomed to the fact that it's not just a fling.

Mel

You don't think that sex makes the world go around. You couldn't be more wrong! When put on an island, it is the second most important thing for people, right after food. That's why I have a sex addiction: It would be my first thought.

Your attitude to your boyfriend (take or leave it) doesn't sound like god will love you for that. How about acting like a team, discussing and deciding matters together, so each of you has a chance to influence decisions?

Good luck!

We have discussed it and he is prepared to respect my morals. Is it really such a big thing to ask? The attitude is not take it or leave it. I simply want to be with someone who respects me for who I am, if they can't do that what future will I have with them anyway.

Yes but I am not on a desert island, it is not necessary to my well being at the moment and there is no need for it now. That's not to say I don't want it, more that I don't feel I'm _really_ ready for it. My virginity is a big thing to me, I don't want to give it to someone and then regret it later.

Mel

I think respect and sex are not mutualy exclusive. Quite on the opposite.

Goodbye for today, Mel.

No, but in my case they are, I have chosen a set of morals to live my life by, no sex before marriage is one of my morals, my Boyfriend has chosen to respect me and my morals and give up sex whilst he is with me, for as long as that may be. He knew what he was letting himself in for when we started dating, he decided I was worth it, I thank him for that and I love him all the more!

Mel

On what grounds did you choose your set of morals, if I my ask?

Talking to family and friends, which of course had a lot of religious background to them, I adopted those I felt had justifiable arguments and which I felt I could argue for (as I am doing here) and discarded those which I felt weren't going to be healthy for myself as a growing person or for the community around me.

Hence I am not an evangelist or homophobe.

I do not believe other religions destin their believers to hell (though I do not believe their religions are right for me).

I do feel there is a place for contraception in our society and I would prefer that people use it than bring unwanted children into the world.

If the pope says Jump I do not respond "how high" I will look at the arguments and decide for myself whether I agree, I may not be a true to life Catholic, It's what I've chosen now, I may be better suited to a different faith, I am still exploring, still learning, and as part of my morals still listening to the other person.

I am inherently a scientist, I have to hear both sides of the argument. I will not be bullied into one side or the other but my childhood ideals will always be with me. (the world is a good place I will marry and live happily ever after )

Mel

Ok Mel, you are in the process of growing up and sometime later you'll be having children.

I have two children of my own, and it's *so good* to see them grow up. My most important goal is to keep the family together and to live a happy family life. But the odds (high divortion rate, low happiness in seemingly functioning families) were against me. That's why I decided some 20 years ago *not* to live on those moral grounds we learn by hearsay. I forced myself to clear my mind off everthing I learned and I started from fresh grounds. Started to think about a moral ground which guarantees that I will still be together with my wife when I'm old. That we can find happiness. That our children life in a happy and peaceful family. I considered conventional moral, religious moral as I was a great Jesus fan back then, genetic factors, and I considered mixing all good things into one.

As a result I decided to live a life of polyamory (without knowing the term), and my decision has so far proven to be the right one.

So why am I telling you this? Preparing for life is like designing an electronic circuit, that's why I've made a plan for my life which has a chance to win against the odds.

Now we are quite off topic. Or maybe not.

I think a marriage between to peopl can last if they love each other, regardless of religion. My grandparents recently celebrated their 60th wedding anniversary, my parents their 30th the female side of both are catholic the male side not (my Dad goes to C of E church twice a year at christmas and Easter!) They have managed it, many others in my family have managed it. I'm sure I can!

Mel

P.S we are not a perfect family, my sister got married in '95 and divorced in '98, s**t happens

P.P.S Have a good holiday!

Sorry about your sister!

Best wishes for you.

My sister has got on with her life, she left Catholisim when she was 16 and christianity during her down period, but still socialises with the church members. Ces't la vie

Mel

Maybe it cheers you up a little bit that Humanists can have happy and stable families too!

I always knew they could, I just feel that more religious marriage last compared to non-religious

I wish they all lasted, but then in someways I'm an idealist

Mel