h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Lear,

This (perhaps to your disappointment!) is not about any link between Taoism and Chess (though of course they are 'one' ;^) ). More a brief note to let you know that:

a) I was thinking of doing an article on Taoism (or at least the Tao), and have been researching the subject recently (actually more a bit of self motivation to read more about it, as it seems the only 'religion' (though that's really the wrong word) that makes any sort of sense. I like the general message, which seems to be along the lines of, 'chill out!'. When I finally get around to it, I'd appreciate some input (or vice versa if you have similar ideas).

b) If you're interested in Chess, there's a great correspondence chess site at http://www.geocities.com/radale/wccf/menu.htm , the World Correspondence Chess Federation with an endless supply of people to play at all levels of ability. I'd also recommend the ECTool - an e-mail chess games manager for keeping track of all those games. There's a link from the WCCF page. If you want an occaisional game drop me a line on [email protected] .

Cheers,

SW

Hi Spirit,

I notice you've given me a link on your homepage, thanks for that. I like your layout, by the way - cool minimalism, and a beautiful graphic...

There is already an article in the Edited Guide on the Tao te Ching, so I imagine if you were interested in writing anything on Taoism it would be wise to take a look at that one first. Possibly the editors might combine any new material with that one unless you can persuade them there is a specific reason for not doing so. The address is :- http://www.h2g2.com/A240634

Actually, I'd love to collaborate on the topic, although I'm a little tied up with a postgrad dissertation for the next month or two. I'll certainly put a few penn'orth in, though, if you let me know what areas you're interested in researching so there isn't too much overlap. I'm interested in Taoism more from the philosophical than the religious perspective, although I would say a balanced view of the subject would perhaps need to take both into account. And I couldn't precisely say where to draw the line anyway. But I don't think it could ever really be understood as a religion in the Western (ie, Judeo-Christian) sense. I hope not, anyway...

See ya,

Lear

PS - thanks for the link. After my traumatic experiences with h2g2 chess, I'm about ready for a proper correspondence chess site...

> There is already an article in the Edited Guide on the Tao te Ching

Yeah, I've seen it, and it is a good article. But there's more to Taoism than just the Tao Te Ching. In particular, I'd like to look at how the practice of Taoism has changed over the centuries.

> Actually, I'd love to collaborate on the topic, although I'm a little tied up with a postgrad dissertation

No problem - I'm pretty tied up with research at the moment (3-year research post, alongside a PhD...), and the idea is only in infancy.

> I'm interested in Taoism more from the philosophical than the religious perspective,

Likewise. I'm more interested in how the idea's relate to life, and how they can be used to make a better way of living. I'm not one to believe in things for the sake of believing - I think it would be wrong to look at the Tao as some kind of god.

Anyway, enjoy the chess games - I'd go for a pawn level tournament to start with, as some of the other tournament styles can get pretty time consuming with up to 15 simultaneous games in the king tourney's! If you fancy a game sometime, drop me a line on my homepage.

Cheers,

SW

Taoism :-

I agree there's more to Taoist thought than the Tao te Ching. An obvious example to illustrate this would be Chuang-Tzu's 'inner chapters', which concentrate more on the individual's personal experience of the Tao, whereas the Tao te Ching is primarily intended as a guide to making Taoist philosophy work in the world of politics and government.

I just thought I'd mention the other article because the editors sometimes have a habit of concentrating things together out of convenience unless persuaded otherwise.

Ok, so maybe we can keep the idea simmering on the backburner for the time being, and post each other if we have any illuminations on our travels along our respective Ways...


Chess :-

You probably won't learn a great deal from a game against me, I'm afraid, unless you're as close to piss-poor as I am at the moment. I'm using Yahoo Games mainly as a bit of light entertainment, playing calamity chess as an escape from academic study. But maybe I'll take you up on that offer someday, just to give you a free laugh...

Bye for now,

Lear

I'm re-reading the Tao Te Ching at the moment, and there is a definite distinction between certain chapters as to content. Some concentrate almost fully on the 'religious' aspect of the Tao I've noticed.

I'm also reading Chuang Tzu (The Essential Chuang Tzu) which is very interesting. Some sections are quite deep, and full of obvious meaning. Others just ramble, or are short and seemingly empty. But then that's the whole thing with the Tao I guess. Everything. And nothing!

Definitely keep ideas bandying around though. I may get in touch with the author of the Tao Te Ching article as well...

I'm not a fantastic player, though if you are literally a novice, then I guess you'd struggle. E-mail games are good for learning though - you get a day or three to think about your next move, so you can try things out and see what possible outcomes there are.

The main bit of advice that I can offer is to assume that your opponent is at least as good as you - ie. don't try cheap tricks. Work instead for a good structure, try and control the middle, and make sure your pieces are covering each other, but are not overloaded (ie. make sure that that bishop is not the sole cover for two different pieces). JM2PW.

Cheers,

SW.

No cheap tricks, eh? You've seen through me already...


The lack of overall consistency in the Tao te Ching is possibly an indication that, rather than being the work of one individual (the enigmatic 'Lao-tzu'), it was a sort of compendium of ideas and aphorisms relating to Taoist thought put together by a number of people, possibly over a period of time. I have heard this argument put forward, although I don't know enough about it to say more at present.

Another possible interpretation is to say that Taoist thought does not seem to find it necessary to strive for a coherent 'body of ideas' - the idea that it *should* do this is perhaps the product of a Western mentality imposing itself on Taoism. Books like the Tao te Ching strive, rather, to stimulate thought and activity along particular lines, and thus they exemplify a general mind-set rather than present a consistent body of ideas as such. There is no equivalent to the 'Ten Commandments' in Taoist philosophy - no sense of a set of instructions (ie, a 'doctrine') that is of permanent, universal significance. Rather, there is a recognition that in life we inhabit various subject positions at different times as necessary according to circumstances, and that generally we adapt and change as we are moving through life.

The thing I find appealing about Taoism is the sense that it seems to give of constant movement, of 'becoming' rather than 'being' - the sense that nothing is permanent and therefore everything is perpetually in a state of flux, a state of becoming something else. The key principle is not to attempt to force experience into pre-existing 'pigeon-holes' (this is a kind of death of the spirit, an end to understanding), but rather to adapt to meet changing circumstances. This is my understanding of the term 'wu wei', or 'non-action' - which basically seems to mean, as you say somewhere above, chill out and go with the flow...

Yours, drifting pleasantly,

Lear.

I agree - I think that the English translation 'non-action' is probably a bad one. It could easily be read as literally 'do nothing', a kind of command to apathy. I like to think of non-action as being more 'do what it is you do', or perhaps 'don't try and be what you're not'.

I've been looking around h2g2, and may invite 'The Taoist at Large' to join the conversation. He seems to be into the Tao on a more religious level, so could add some stuff. He's written a couple of short entries on Taoism.

Going back to what you were saying, I think that is one of the important things about Taoism - the uncarved block business. You can't learn new things unless you approach them with an open mind is very true. I think that business people in the west are starting to realise this with their 'brainstorming' activities - but the whole fact that it is governed by rules sort of goes against the grain. The point about the uncarved block is that it is a way of life - drop all predjudices and preconceptions, and open your mind.

This is the sort of thing that particularly appeals to me about Taoism - so many 'religions' (most?) are so incredibly closed minded that all sorts of problems are caused. Take the problems in Northern Ireland for a start - why do the Catholics care so much that the Orange men march down their streets? Why do the Orangemen continue the march if it upsets the street residents so much? They even worship the same god!!

'Chill out' is something an aweful lot of people need to do in this world that's for sure!

Later,

SW

I would agree that 'non-action' is probably a bad translation, as you say. It seems to reflect a Western dualistic mind-set (ie, if one is not acting specifically with intentionality one must therefore be 'passive'). I would say the ideal Taoist state is somewhere between 'action' and 'non-action', neither one nor the other precisely. (Possibly a better translation of 'wu wei' might be 'not-forced'. Then again, I don't know any Chinese so I'm going on hearsay here...)

Yeah, it would be a nice idea to get other folks involved too. No reason why not. The more the crazier, I always think. Seeing as you mention the idea of the 'uncarved block', I think there is actually someone on h2g2 who uses this nickname - they might be interested as well. I'll have a scout around next time I get a chance at work (my own computer, which I'm using now, is very old and very slow)...

The religious side of Taoism seems completely different from the philosophical ideas we've been discussing here. I have heard that it is concerned with the quest for immortality, and that the emphasis is on developing habits and rituals aimed at 'purifying' the system with the aim of achieving eternal life... If this is so, I think it's difficult to see how a concern with immortality could have grown from thinkers such as Chuang-tzu, who seem to arrive at an acceptance of mortality without invoking notions of immortality or reincarnation in another world or whatever. Death is seen merely as a part of a natural process, a something that happens to all life. I like this idea - after all, it's a problem that we all have to face sooner or later. And I don't think Western culture has the equipment today to cope with the problem of mortality because without God there is just a great space where acceptance used to be...

Bye for now,

Lear.

> I have heard that it is concerned with the quest for immortality...

I agree that it does seem to be against the ideas in the TTC and Chuang Tzu's stuff. I think though, that people take ideas and corrupt them into religion to a large extent. There are many references to the inability of those who want to teach about the Tao actually being able to do so. In fact didn't the Confucians and Taoists claim to be opposing ways? Which is strange in itself, as Confucious seems to be a highly regarded figure in Chuang Tzu...

The 'religious' part of the TTC I was referring to, however, were sections such as verses 4 and 6, where the Tao as an entity are mentioned aside from any connection with practical advice. This sort of verse is a kind of mythology of the Tao itself, rather than 'how to follow the Tao', or 'how to become a part of the Tao'.

Taoist at Large doesn't seem to have been around for some months, but I've left a message on his page anyway...

It's perhaps worth setting up a dedicated article for the discussion of Taoism... Definitely check out the 'Uncarved Block' dude though.

Later,

SW

Right, I left a message on Shaun the Uncarved Block's home page, but once again it looks like he hasn't been around for a couple of months. Looks like it's just the two of us for the time being, but not to worry - reading through this forum, I think we've managed to put together a fair background of material already.

It might be an idea to start thinking about how we can break things down into manageable subject areas. Looking at what we've been discussing, it seems to me that it so far our interests fall into three or four broad categories :- introductory stuff and general principles of Taoist thought; historical background; Taoism from a philosophical point of view; Taoism as a religious practice.

I'm not sure about the relationship between Confucian and Taoist thought. Perhaps that might be another subject area, in fact... I understand that they're generally seen as being two opposing (but inter-related) aspects of Chinese thought, with Confucianism being more 'worldly' and Taoism generally seen as concerned more with withdrawal from the world of politics and morality. But the Tao te Ching seems, in fact, as much concerned with government and general life in the world as with 'inner experience' - in fact, it seems like a kind of manual for the good leader to govern well using no force. Hmm...

Bye for now, Lear

The four categories seem sensible. I think that relations between Confucism and Taoism can probably wait until we've filled in some of the other bits though. Do you want to start the ball rolling with an article containing perhaps just the headers? Or shall I?

That way we can add stuff to the forum for that article, and keep everything in one place.

What are you doing the postgrad dissertation for BTW.

Ok Spirit, I've started off a page for us @ http://www.h2g2.com/A422605 There's also a new thread going @ http://www.h2g2.com/F52110?thread=72222&post=544439 and I've put a few comments up there to set things off again... See you there, Lear. PS - Humanities Masters specialising in Literary Studies