h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Just to let you know this will be my last posting for a couple of weeks.

My family and I will be off to Oslo shortly so I will be offline.

A bright lammas to you all,
Matholwch /|\.

How exciting!

Hope you have a wonderful time.




az

Wow, have a great time. The northern lights should be good there are 2 sun spots pointed at us at the mo. Just been updating the PF webpage on heathen stuff as well, very pertinent. Bring us back a Viking then!

Math

Have fun, Math - and careful what you eat. Luck is a finite quality.

Kat

The PF webpage on heathenry?

What's the url for that, please?

Jez

Yes, I'd like to know that too.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

http://www.paganfed.org/pathways-northern.htm

you will notice I am sure that I was given the same info as was put on the bbc site, but as it was given to me by the person who originally wrote it, I just did what I was told!

Kaz

>>http://www.paganfed.org/pathways-northern.htm
you will notice I am sure that I was given the same info as was put on the bbc site, but as it was given to me by the person who originally wrote it, I just did what I was told!<<

Yep, as one of the many people who wrote it, I'd say you got it right

Jezreell - AS heathen, non-wiccan witch and non-PF pagan

Oh I didn't realise you were one of the writers!

I think its great that the Heathens are continually re-writing their information, there is some really stagnant stuff on that website. Maybe I can point to the 'getting things going heathens' as an example and get some movement elsewhere on the site as well.

Kaz

>>Maybe I can point to the 'getting things going heathens' as an example and get some movement elsewhere on the site as well.<<

LOL

Probably not a good moment to use me as an example for the PF - I have been having a - discussion - with Amergin Og today and yesterday about the fact that the 3Ps stop heathens of conscience from joining - and everyine seemed to be enjoying it except him...

Go take a look at BritWitch

Jez

I know the 3p problem, its been such a big debate. I don't agree with them, asthey do not mean anything. I can happily agree with them as there meaning is so wishy-washy it can be taken either way.

I was told by a heathen once that they take their oaths seriously. So do I, but I didn't consider the 3ps to be an oath. It was a basic way of asking, are you sort of pagan then?

I know oaths are different for you guys, but in the end I wanted to do some voluntary work for pagans and I feel I work better on the inside then the outside.

You know I used to be in a re-enactment society, where I was a Viking. Thats when I started to look up about blots, hearths and the sagas etc. I was going to be a re-enactment style advisor on how to do the rituals authentically. No-one was interested though, and in fairness it was only ever play. It was very interesting though, till I got thrown out!

Would you care to translate this apparently fascinating discussion into English? "3Ps" and so on?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

The 3 principles of the pagan federation are an attempt to define paganism. The 3nd is the one which the Heathens cannot agree to, which is a shame as that is a whole pagan group who feel they cannot join the PF, you have to agree to them before you can join. Some of us arn't that bothered and just agree, but for heathens oath-giving is very important. Hopefuly one will be along soon and explain it better later!

1. Love for and Kinship with Nature. Reverence for the life force and its ever-renewing cycles of life and death.

2. A positive morality, in which the individual is responsible for the discovery and development of their true nature in harmony with the outer world and community. This is often expressed as 'Do what you will, as long as it harms none'.

3. Recognition of the Divine, which transcends gender, acknowledging both the female and male aspect of Deity.

found here
http://www.paganfed.org/aboutpf-3ps.htm

>>The 3 principles of the pagan federation are an attempt to define paganism. The 3nd is the one which the Heathens cannot agree to, which is a shame as that is a whole pagan group who feel they cannot join the PF, you have to agree to them before you can join. Some of us arn't that bothered and just agree, but for heathens oath-giving is very important. Hopefuly one will be along soon and explain it better later!<<

OK - just like a number two bus, here I am...

First - Most of the reconstructionalist religions - of which heathenry is one - are polytheistic, and that means hard polytheist, with belief/knowledge of the real, separate, individual gods and goddesses (and other wights(beings with consciousness) which inhabit the world(s)). These beings - including humans - are experienced as individuals who have their own lives and their own paths through wyrd (roughly, fate) and their own agendas and methods. Most wights are not human, and are not particularly concerned with humans, some are intimately fascinated by us and some just deal with us as and when it becomes necessary.

Second - Oath-taking means signing or speaking a contract which is witnessed by the gods and is a thing which shakes the worlds. We are nothing if we cannot keep our word, and as a heathen for over thirty years, and having had the honour of dealing with Tiw, the One whose word is the most inviolate of all the gods, I cannot put my name to anything I do not accept whole-heartedly.

So - to the Three Principles of the PF (the second one of which is given in two different forms depending on whether you are reading their statement or their constitution (both on the same website)

1. Love for and Kinship with Nature. Reverence for the life force and its ever-renewing cycles of life and death.

As a heathen, I don't 'revere' the 'life force'. WTF is 'the life force' (singular noun)? There are many things with life, I don't recognise a separate 'life force'. It is too much like monotheism for me.

2. A positive morality, in which the individual is responsible for the discovery and development of their true nature in harmony with the outer world and community. This is often expressed as 'Do what you will, as long as it harms none'.

This is not the form in which this appears in the constitution, where this statement (the Wiccan Rede) is put forward as 'The Pagan Ethic'. It is not. I have my own ethical system, summed up in the phrase:

'Do only that which you can bring proudly before your gods'

Other paths have their own ethical codes. Examples include the Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru, and the Wiccan Rede.

I find the Rede 1) woolly - it is impossible to harm none, you have to eat...
2) not positive at all (there is nothing positive in that statement, it is a passive negative if anything.

I don't want to be defined by what uncle Gerald dropped into a modern system fifty years ago to pacify the Christians who would otherwise have had a field day with the fact that he was publicising a form of witchcraft.

3. Recognition of the Divine, which transcends gender, acknowledging both the female and male aspect of Deity.

And this is the biggie - The Divine - capital letter, singular = monotheist big G God, wrapped up and ready to be served as a second sop to the Christian establishment. And aspects...

My gods are real, independent beings with their own lives. They are no more aspects of some vague godforce than you or I are aspects of some vague humanforce.


So however much I may want to be a member of an organisation which claims to represent me, I cannot, because it excludes me. If I could ignore its definition of me, I could join. But then I would be in violation of my own ethical values. And I am not prepared to do that.

Why can't the PF simply define pagans as people who consider themselves pagan?

There is no reason to still have these principles now that the PF has at last recognised that there are other pagan paths out there, with hundreds or thousands of adherents, many of whom simply leave the PF on the shelf. Very few of those I know are members, and I know well over a hundred pagans by word and face, not to mention e-lists. And of all of them, less than 5% are PF members.

If the Pagan Federation was actually a federation, then I could join APT and we could apply - as members of APT - for federated status, with mutual benefits and join together as members of pagan religions. But the PF is a federation only in name, and their are no affiliated organisations that I know of, nor any facility in the constitution to allow affiliation.

Unless someone from the PF knows different?

But the President - Amergin Og - would not debate this on BritWitch, and I doubt if anyone will debate it here either.

Jez - AS heathen, non-wiccan witch, and non-PF pagan

PS the APT site is to be found at

Association of Polytheist Traditions - http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/APT

and you are welcome to come and take a look around, and maybe join the
mailing group, which is a yahoo group called BritPoly.

Jezreell
--
Jezreell has studied and practised Anglosaxon heathenry and witchcraft for
over thirty years and is a member of the Association of Polytheistic
Traditions but cannot be a member of the Pagan Federation because the Three Principles are not in accord with the teachings of her tradition, nor do
they represent the beliefs of her spiritual ancestors.

Jez if their is a discrepancy in the website then its my fault as I run it, I shall have a look.

I have made the point on pf elists that the pf is not a federation, and could we either start acting like one or change the name. Bet you can guess the answer!

I can't debate it, as I don't agree with it. But I do not have the relationship with my dieties as you do with yours, so my world doesn't shake if my oath is not solemn. For instance I do not believe in dieties as such.

Its a difficult point, they feel they need it for paperwork reasons. The charity commission refused the Pf charitable status because they said the word pagan didn't mean anything, so the 3ps are an attempt to give official meaning to the word. The government wants to deal with organisations which represent pagans as a whole and have these bits of paperwork.

Do you know about PEBBLE, they are trying to represent all pagans and give a united front to the government to get us proper status and recognition as a religion.

PEBBLE is the PF, Wiccauk, Council of British Druid Orders and PIPS, I don't think their is a heathen voice in there, there should be. Are you interested, I can give you a hand if you like?

http://pebble.wiccauk.com/

All 3 mentions of the principles should now agree.

Kaz

Hey, there is a sensible person on the PF (just kidding).

Out of interest, which version did you pick? And can you tell John Mac that he can stop PM-ing me about it, as it has been fixed?

Right - Pebbles - yes, I know about it. They won't let any of us on except Midgard's Web, because all the other groups are too small. (I think that was the reason).

That leaves all the other polytheist religions out completely.

It's also in London, and I can't just pop down to London - I have neither the time nor the money - they don't pay expenses.

Nor do I have the right to represent pagans - no-one has elected me.

So, I and others have started an organisation - APT - which may one day - when the PF actually becomes what it says it is, a Federation of Pagans (or of Pagan groups) - become affiliated to the larger organisation.

Polytheists don't fit the wiccan mould, Kaz. They never will. But they are pagan.

I was pagan in the seventies, and I wasn't wiccan, although a lot of those I met outside my own group were book-wiccans (some of whom now claim all sorts of fancy lineage LOL) and were teen-wannabees. The Pagan Fed then was wiccan. I did not join. It's still wiccan, nearly forty years on, and it should either become an inclusive group or stop pretending to be one. It's had plenty of time.

Like I said somewhere else...

LOL

Are you on BritWitch?

It's such a waste. I'd have been a bl**dy good campaigner.

If it ever becomes a Federation of Pagans, tell me - I'll be first in the queue with my money.

Jezreell

--

Jezreell has studied and practised Anglosaxon heathenry and witchcraft for over thirty years and is a member of the Association of Polytheistic Traditions but cannot be a member of the Pagan Federation because the Three Principles are not in accord with the teachings of her tradition, nor do they represent the beliefs of her spiritual ancestors.
 
Association of Polytheist Traditions - http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/APT

I am not on BritWitch, as a non-wiccan/witch I tend to ignore all those sites. Is it better than that then?

The pf is really trying to get rid of the wiccan only angle, honest!

Whys John been pming you about it? he could have pmed me directly, I thought I had changed them all, theres so many bloody mentions of the damned things, I have cut it down though! There used to be 4, now its only 3 whoopee

I shall check out your website.

I believe that all plants, animals, stones and even places have a spirit and all these spirits together form a gaia type thing. I have experienced Cernunnos and the Goddess directly, but I perceive them as facets of the whole. Our difference as I see it is that you know them to be individual entities?

Nice talking to you!

I like your principles

'a) We recognise many gods and do not deny the existence of gods from religions other than our own.'
Gaia contains all the spirits and dieties, but I could be wrong, its just my way of looking at it.

'b) We see our gods as individual deities. They are neither 'aspects of the Divine' nor 'avatars of the Godhead'.'
I don't have a problem with that, I think of the Gods as whole, kinda like humankind is composed of many humans, but they are still individuals

'c) We understand our gods to have an independent existence outside of our own psyches. They are not unconscious archetypes. '
I have no problem with that, archetypes are an interesting way of looking at things, but not my way

'd) Our gods may appear to us as male, female, or of no fixed gender'
As mentioned earlier I have had dealings with Cernunnos, so I have no problem with that.

So can I join? Do you have a problem that I signed upto the 3ps? My beliefs are quite relaxed, basically I will believe whatever I experience. I feel I can sign upto both, but do you think that is wrong?

I would really like to support Heathenism, I think the present pf view is crap. I can work at it from the inside though! From my re-enactment days I got quite into the sagas and the havamal etc, and I would love to stay involved. If my membership of your group is a problem, then maybe I could be an associate member?

"Oh I didn't realise you were one of the writers!"

Um, Kaz, when you asked me who owned the copyright I said (and only in case you needed names) me, Arlea and UKHeathenry. Jez was one of the more lexically active members of UKH about this.
Alexa

"I was told by a heathen once that they take their oaths seriously. So do I, but I didn't consider the 3ps to be an oath. It was a basic way of asking, are you sort of pagan then?"

yeah, but what sort of pagan???

Our problem is that it isn't just oaths - it's our word, our troth - a word which might be taken as meaning something between 'truth' and 'oath' - which we take seriously. If we give our word, we mean what we say. We believe our gods will hold us to account for it.

You think of all those myths, of whichever European country, where someone swears to something and his/her words come back to haunt him in a way s/he didn't expect. The Greeks (and other peoples) used to have a fear of saying something thoughtlessly in such a way in case the Erinyes (aka 'The Furies') took them at their word. In fact, they wouldn't even refer to the Erinyes directly, but called them 'the Fair Ones' in the hope they would not take the words from their mouths in that way.

it's the same in our religion. Like the Celts, the Heathen religion was built on oaths to a lord, bound with rings: rings on which to swear the oath, rings to signify the oath, rings to reward the faithful as booty.The importance of the ring as a signifier of the word and fidelity has come down to us today only in the shape of the wedding ring, which is a direct descedent. Do you think Tolkien named his books, based on pre-Christian Anglo Saxon society, Lord of the Rings because it sounded good?

So, no; if we can't assent to the spirit as well as the letter of the 3Ps, we can't sign up to them. Vague, wishy-washy phrases which can be interpreted any old how is not how we do business.