h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

....some russian scientists, over the course of 40 generations did manage to domesticate foxes, see http://www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/articles/99articles/Trut.html ....
BCNU - Crescent

I think the point is that a large number of breeds of dog have been domesticated, as have cats, whereas foxes remain wild. A few of them might be domesticated, but as a species they're far from ready to lie down on the rug in front of the telly.

I know it is pedantic, but foxes have been domesticated. When you say that a large number of breeds of dogs have been domesticated what actually happened is that all the breeds of domestic dogs came from a few domesticated wolves (wild wolves today themselves still being undomesticated). All the cat breeds today came from a few domesticated cats in the far past.

Domestication is a process where the animals lose it fear of man in the adult state. This seems to normally occurs by the animal never truley growing up, but staying in a 'puppy' mode, showing friendlyness, playfulness, curiosity etc. well into adulthood. It seems to be genetic, at least in the foxes, in that most of the offspring of the first 'domestic' fox are domestic themselves.

Pedantic, I know, but there we are Until later....
BCNU - Crescent

Well, well...

Breeding can of course do a lot. Turn foxes into dogs and cows into bisons. There are tamed lions, tigers in the circus in the zoos and at siegfried & roy's. Gorillas are curious and not afraid of men, unless they have met a hunter (I wouldn't too be afraid of small hairless primates if I were a Gorilla and didn't know about guns). I wouldn't call Gorillas and lions domesticated. Amoebas and E. coli's and guinea pigs have been breeded for many reasons, changed their entire genome - all of those animals when released into nature wouldn't be able to survive - anyhow those animals are widely used in labs throughout the world - are they domesticated? I don't think they even know that there are humans doing something with them...

Anyhow. There are a few foxes that were breeded for one trait: friendlyness toward people. Well, that doesn't make foxes domesticated yet, IMO.

BTW, I don't think cats are domesticated either, at least mine was not. He lived with us, got his food, but he didn't really care. Sometimes he tried to bring US food (dead rats). Sometimes he liked to be fondled, but I think he thought of himself more as a sublessee than a pet...

HELL

Domestication IS friendliness towards humans in adult animals, that is what it is. It is a lack of the natural distrust and fight/flight that humans normally inspire in their surrounds. In the foxes (and dogs) it comes about by an extension to their normal inquisitive, friendly, puppy nature, their genes stop them from becoming adult too quickly. All the offspring of those foxes are going to be like that, a severe disadvantage in the wild, but a great advantage when living with humans.

Tamed animals are different they have learned that we are not to be disobeyed, but they are not friendly towards us. Once they get to late adolescence you do not see people playing with them (they may make them do tricks, but it is all serious) even gorillas, in documentaries the young are inquisitive and playful, but the presenters never get in the way of the big boys.

Not all foxes are domesticated, but for the first time in a very long while an animal (the fox) has been domesticated (rather than just tamed). Ooh, almost hometime, and I still have loads to do Must dash, so until later.....
BCNU - Crescent

Then City pigeons are domesticated; Or tapeworms, they LIKE us very much.

Bye,

HELL

No symbiotic relationships there Until later....
BCNU - Crescent

symbiotic??? What do I get from my tapeworm?

HELL

Thinner

From what I've heard to domesticate an animal it needs to be a social pack based creature with a pack "alpha" which we replace.

Removing any creature from the wild it can become "tamed" - it is simply unafraid of humans and isn't likely to accept much training, as like us almost all our real learning happens as an infant. These creatures can though be released to the wild.

Taking the young of wild animals means they can be domesticated, ie. see us as a part of the pack and behave subserviant to us. At a young age they can be trained and disciplined to behave as we like. Importantly they will retain much of their instinctual behaviour which will often go against their training or make them less than dosile.

Generations of domestication can breed their instictual behaviour out of them, and mould them to what we want behaviour wise and physically. Best example of this is dogs, There are wild species of dogs still out there, of domestic ones there are many traits which have been kept in some but bred out of others. Territoriality makes good guard dogs, aggression makes fighting and working dogs, curiousity and the urge to hunt make obviously hunting dogs and being smaller with a strong pack sense and dosility makes good house dogs.

To me,domestication of certain wild animals is okay as long as they aren't bred to be salves or 'sitting ducks' kind of prey for amateur hunters. & as long as they aren't dump into the streets after being domesticated. Plus, people MUST have a very good reason why they have to domesticate certain wild animals.

Zombie thread, I command you to rise....

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427281.500-my-little-zebra-the-secrets-of-domestication.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

BCNU - Crescent