A Conversation for Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
- 1
- 2
Peer Review: A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
njan (afh) Started conversation Feb 9, 2002
Entry: Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments) - A649280
Author: Njan (Sabbath Child) (*loves Poet with all of his heart* - U50758) - U47349
It's a bit eclectic, but it's quite interesting, thoroughly researched, and stuff. I don't know how much of this is in the guide already, but..
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Feb 15, 2002
Hi, Njan. I don't know how I missed looking at this entry until now. I am impressed: you obviously know a lot about this subject. But I think the entry still needs some work. Everything in it is factual, but it doesn't hang together very well. Your section on the Boehm system doesn't really fit in with the title of the article. The article starts suddenly and stops suddenly.
Perhaps the best way to proceed is to decide exactly what you want the article to be about. Set that as the title and remove anything that doesn't relate to it. Write a short paragraph as an introduction saying what the article is about. Write a short paragraph as a conclusion, summarising. Then shift around your paragraphs until they make some sort of progression. Finally, rewrite your headings to match the new arrangement.
"The design of the modern clarinet" might be a good title. You might mention that "polycylindrical" is the technical term for the bore invented by that guy working for Buffet. You might also mention undercutting of tone holes.
Finally, some of this is alrady in the guide in the entry "Woodwind Instruments - An Overview": A626609. You could put a link to that.
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Mikey the Humming Mouse - A3938628 Learn More About the Edited Guide! Posted Feb 22, 2002
Just wanted to post and say that I agree with Gnomon on this one. I found the individual bits of info very interesting and well-written, but was rather confused as to how they all fit together.
Mikey
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Ausnahmsweise, wie üblich (Consistently inconsistent) Posted Feb 24, 2002
I have to agree. Lots of snippets of interesting facts.
There's an entry here somewhere on Fourier that might explain the end result of having all odd harmonics.
I read somewhere that it is more difficult to differentiate intruments if you don't hear a note begin (the "attack" I think it's called) or end. So, although the harmonics are important, they are not the only contributing factor.
Awu
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Zarquon's Singing Fish! Posted Feb 24, 2002
I agree with Gnomon here. Please don't be put off by the comments; they're meant in a constructive way. It's an interesting subject and has promise.
I'll come back to this one, when you've reshaped it.
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Azara Posted Mar 16, 2002
Hi, Njan! I don't know enough about clarinets to comment on this entry. I did comment on your entry on Weber, in the thread at http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/F72707?thread=128739 I remember that in that thread you never responded to any of the comments that people made. This is a bit disappointing when a reviewer goes to the trouble of reading your entry and thinking carefully about it before commenting. Ignoring reviewers comments defeats the whole purpose of Peer Review. Azara
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
njan (afh) Posted Mar 17, 2002
Apologies. When my life's falling apart around me, the things that inspire hope in me dullen, when my instruments get shelved and I don't even have time to dust them, when I have more work than I have time in the day to breathe, and when I have to sort out the problems of others betwixt the chaos my life has become... I tend to sideline peer review.
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Azara Posted Mar 18, 2002
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Mar 19, 2002
Njan, If things are bad, you may not get time to look at h2g2, but make sure to take a little bit of time aside to play the clarinet. You'll feel a lot better for it, and better able to face the day.
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
njan (afh) Posted Mar 19, 2002
No problem.. I'm just giving my reasons for not editing articles much. (That and I was snapping, and for that sorry)
Tomorrow I'm playing in the Sheldonian Theatre in Oxford, on Saturday I'm playing in the Oxford Town Hall, and I played with two orchestras yesterday evening. I'm getting plenty of playing in.
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Zak T Duck Posted Apr 15, 2002
I've got good new Njan, this entry has been recommended for inclusion in the edited guide! Congratulations
You should be able to track its progress on the ComingUp page, and you'll be contacted by email once it amkes it onto the front page
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Apr 15, 2002
Why was this entry recommended? Peer Review pointed out many places where the entry needed improvement. All researchers agreed on this. Njan stated blankly that he wasn't going to make any changes because he didn't have time. And now it's been recommended as is!
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Apr 15, 2002
I've lodged a formal complaint at the Editorial Feedback page.
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Smij - Formerly Jimster Posted Apr 15, 2002
Gnomon, I can understand why you might be worried of this setting a prededent.
The Entry was picked because it is a good one as it stands. The changes suggested in the thread are straightforward and can be incorporated either by the sub-editors or the editors (which will probably be the case, as Njan has explained he is too busy to return to it).
Jmster
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Apr 15, 2002
Will the rewritten version go through Peer Review, or will it go in automatically?
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Apr 15, 2002
I suppose I had better give some detailed comments on the entry. I was holding off on the detail until Njan had agreed to do some work on it.
"after much refinement" - this suggests that the clarinet keywork has been continually refined since 1839 to produce the present system. In fact the present Boehm system is exactly the same as the one introduced in 1839.
The Boehm system is not used throughout the clarinet-playing world. Eastern Europe, Turkey and India tend to use the old pre-Boehm clarinets, known as "Simple System". Austria and Germany tend to use a refined version of the Simple System called the Oehler System.
The section entitled "The bore" is about the fact that the bore in clarinets is basically cylindrical. But the first sentence, talking about Robert Carée, suggests that this only came about in 1950. In fact, the clarinet always had a basically cylindrical bore. What Carée did was to invent the polycylindrical bore, a method of dealing with the small increases in bore diameter necessary for good pitching. This is probably best dealt with in a footnote.
Flutes do not a conical bore. Early baroque flutes did, but with the invention of the parabolic head, flutes adopted a cylindrical bore, similar to the clarinet. The reason they do not sound like the clarinet is because of another factor: the blowhole makes them act like a pipe which is open at both ends, while the clarinet acts like a pipe open at only one end.
"the even harmonics ... are missing" - they are greatly reduced in volume but not missing!
It is probably worth putting in a link to A626609 Woodwind Instruments - An Overview, where much of this information is given already.
"Mozart, who is famous for his vocal work, wrote such a quantity of music for clarinet" - Mozart did not write a huge quantity of music for the clarinet. He only wrote two major works (the Concerto and the Quintet). It is the quality of Mozart's work rather than the quantity which makes it great.
This article is almost entirely about the clarinet. It only mentions other instruments to say how the clarinet differs from them. So the title should be changed.
Finally, some typos:
Klose --> Klosé
boehm --> Boehm
Buffet Crampon were founded --> Buffet Crampon was founded
manufactureer --> manufacturer
Hertz --> hertz
The conical bores of the saxophone and Oboe have conical bores --> The bores of the saxophone and oboe are conical
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
njan (afh) Posted Apr 15, 2002
a) No, it doesn't. There's no implication made in "after much refinement". The only statement made is that (i) there's refinement, and (ii) this is numerous. Any chronological assumption other than the fact that the boehm system arose out of simple system clarinets (hence the word "after") is exactly that - an assumption.
b) The Boehm system is used almost exclusively throughout the clarinet playing world, being used in America, France, and England, who constitute much of the "clarinet playing world". The simple system to which you refer is almost exclusively albert-system, and is also used in New Orleans. Much of your point here relies on statements like "a refined version of the simple system". Putting it that way, the BOEHM system is "a refined version of the simple system". Yes, Germany (and to some extent Austria) use the Oehler system. However, Boehm system clarinets dwarf other keywork systems by a huge number. In addition, the Boehm system extends to the flute, oboe, bassoon, and saxophone, not to mention a far more varied range of types of clarinet than either albert (simple) system, or oehler.
c) Please stop making implications based on what I write. The statements "Robert Carée ... developed the bore still used in Buffet's R13 clarinet" and "The clarinet is unusual in having a cylindrical bore" are not linked other than by their being in the same paragraph. And if setting off on the road towards listing specific alterations made to clarinets, then the scope of the article will have to be broadened far beyond original perspectives: anything from the introduction of wraparound register keys for improved pitching to the movement to straight register keys (due to manufacturing techniques) to the register keys fitted with longer speaker tubes (again, for better pitching) will have to be touched on, /just to mention one key/. Admittedly, the article is about bores, and not about keys, but the point still applies. The paragraph DOES refer to the polycylindrical bore, which it refers to (if not by name). It is possible to tell that Robert Carée did /not/ invent the cylindrical bore by nature of the fact that the sentance in question starts with the subject "The clarinet" rather than "Robert Carée. Basic syntax.
d) This point is far more debatable, and far more of a legitimately makeable point. However, it is a generally acceptable statement throughout the musical world that the flute has a conical more (which, fundamentally, it does). It is only in the last few decades that the flute has moved to such a closely cylindrical model that it currently works to, and - in the same way that the clarinet is not regarded as "polycylindrical" because the model on which possibly the most common clarinet in the world (the R13, three specimens of which I own) is based is polycylindrical - it is not fair to state that the flute is cylindrical simply because more recently manufactured flutes have been close to this. The flute which I hold in my hands at this minute - A wooden "improved" model flute (barely old enough to warrant an antique price) has a bore which goes from 13 to 9 millimetres from the end of the headjoint to the end of the flute. Hardly cylindrical.
e) This is true. I apologise. From the perspective of a sound engineer (in the role of which i was acting at the time of writing), the harmonics are missing. However, this definition is more technical than practical.
f) Quite.
g) Mozart, for a composer at a time at which the nature of the clarinet was incredibly fluid, wrote an enormous quantity of music for the clarinet. Mozart was the first composer to write major works for the clarinet, and it was this which both inspired Weber and fixed the clarinet in the minds of the music intelligentsia, causing it to take on the musical role which it has today. Undoubtedly, were Mozart not to have taken a great liking to the clarinet (and, in particular, to Anton Stadler), the clarinet would not exist in the form it takes.
The title of the article, in case you did not quite understand it, refers principally to the clarinet. Tone of voice and emphasis are entirely missed out in any form of markup language.
To clarify, the title refers to...
"Bores, Harmonics, and the tone... of the clarinet".
Your kind, caring, sympathetic assistance is much appreciated.
- Njan
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Apr 15, 2002
At last, a reply from Njan! I'm glad you've decided to join this discussion.
>>Please stop making implications based on what I write.
No. I won't. If what you write is unclear, it must be fixed now. It is not good enough to say that you know what it means. I am perfectly entitled to tell you the implications of what you write, since the reader may make the same implications.
I'll concede that the Boehm system is used throughout much of the clarinet-playing world. I don't remember seeing word "much" in your article when I made that comment. The Boehm system used on the clarinet is not the one used on the flute, oboe and saxophone, so the comparison you make in your Posting (but not in the entry itself) is invalid. Klosé called it "Boehm" as a tribute to Boehm, not because it was the same system.
I'll stand by my statement about Robert Carée. The development of the polycylindrical bore was a minor matter. Putting it at the start of a paragraph about bores suggests it is what the paragraph is about.
"it is not fair to state that the flute is cylindrical simply because more recently manufactured flutes have been close to this". Perhaps so. But the sound of the flute is nothing whatsoever to do with the slight conical nature. A flute which is cylindrical will still sound the same and will overblow at the octave. The flute acts like a cylindrical pipe, which it almost is. An oboe acts like a conical pipe. That difference may be too complex to put in the article, but if so, leave the flute out entirely.
The title is not "Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet", it is "Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)". All I ask is that you drop the bit in brackets.
>>Your kind, caring, sympathetic assistance is much appreciated.
The written word is not good at conveying emotion, but even I can recognise the tone of that remark and it is not appreciated! I offered my kind, caring, sympathetic assistance as far back as the 15th of February and it was ignored.
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Apr 15, 2002
This angry exchange would have been avoided if the editors had stuck by their own guidelines!
A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
njan (afh) Posted Apr 15, 2002
I started the discussion, and as such can never be technically deemed to "join" it, being taken as a participant to start with.
It's not in any way unclear, and second opinion confirms this. *refers you to every other person he's asked about the article*
No, it's not the same system. In the same way that right and lefthand drive cars are used all over the world, but cars are still almost certainly the predominant means of mechanised transport.
No, it doesn't. The reason for starting the paragraph in that manner is to preserve some form of continuity with the previous paragraph. It makes the article less fragmentory, and easier to read to the layperson.
Actually yes, it does. As mentioned, the harmonics which this sort of bore creates carry more, explaining the peircing quality of the flute even in lower registers. The oboe is sufficiently piercing that it has historically been used as a metre by which to tune the orchestra, sufficiently well does it carry.
As long as the article touches upon other instruments (which, by illustrating the clarinet's difference from them, it does), it may legitimately carry this clause on the end of the title.
Admittedly, I haven't been paying much attention to this forum, but you didn't /have/ to offer your assistance. Further to that, the tone of writing which has annoyed me quite so this afternoon started after the article was scouted, which suggests an entirely different reason for annoyance.
- Njan
Key: Complain about this post
- 1
- 2
Peer Review: A649280 - Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
- 1: njan (afh) (Feb 9, 2002)
- 2: Gnomon - time to move on (Feb 15, 2002)
- 3: Mikey the Humming Mouse - A3938628 Learn More About the Edited Guide! (Feb 22, 2002)
- 4: Ausnahmsweise, wie üblich (Consistently inconsistent) (Feb 24, 2002)
- 5: Zarquon's Singing Fish! (Feb 24, 2002)
- 6: Azara (Mar 16, 2002)
- 7: njan (afh) (Mar 17, 2002)
- 8: Azara (Mar 18, 2002)
- 9: Gnomon - time to move on (Mar 19, 2002)
- 10: njan (afh) (Mar 19, 2002)
- 11: Zak T Duck (Apr 15, 2002)
- 12: Gnomon - time to move on (Apr 15, 2002)
- 13: Gnomon - time to move on (Apr 15, 2002)
- 14: Smij - Formerly Jimster (Apr 15, 2002)
- 15: Gnomon - time to move on (Apr 15, 2002)
- 16: Gnomon - time to move on (Apr 15, 2002)
- 17: njan (afh) (Apr 15, 2002)
- 18: Gnomon - time to move on (Apr 15, 2002)
- 19: Gnomon - time to move on (Apr 15, 2002)
- 20: njan (afh) (Apr 15, 2002)
More Conversations for Bores, Harmonics, and the tone of the clarinet (and other woodwind instruments)
Write an Entry
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a wholly remarkable book. It has been compiled and recompiled many times and under many different editorships. It contains contributions from countless numbers of travellers and researchers."