h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I read an interesting book recently - the author suggested that, far from being the poor victims of a malicious state and mental disease, many of those suffering 'demonic possession' were in fact merely good actors. The rewards include better conditions, attention from superiors and the ability to slag them off without penalty, the ability to inspire fear in your peers, and the inherent enjoyment in public performance.

Apparently nuns in continental Europe used to get 'epidemics' of demonic possession, to the extent that entire nunneries had to be shut down. The devil is the father of lies, they say...

(it's no doubt equally true that some of those who claimed demonic possession were genuinely afflicted by mental disease of some sort)

So, are you entirely discounting the possibility of actual "posession" by a malevolent external entity?

Call me a humourless realist...

I agree with Lucinda..alot of it was hysteria ,some were due to Ergot poisoning from mouldy wheat(Salem witchtrials were an example of this) so you could say drugs, hypnosisis another cause, and the rest mental illness. If you can find me a genuine case Peet i'd be delighted to investigate. The mind is easily tricked into thinking it is possessed..I had a client once convinced she was a vampire ..it took months to prove otherwise to her.She is now back to what you might call "normality" except of course there is no such thing ,just where we fit on the graph curve nearest the mean classed as normal.

I've heard just enough anecdotal tales that I'd hesitate to completely discount the possibility. Nothing that would stand up as evidence, but numerous tales across different cultures pointing to evidence of "disembodied intelligences". "Ghosts", "Poltergeists", and, yes, "Possession", where the "possessed" individual knows facts they couldn't know by any conventional physical means. Barring a convincing explaination to the contrary, I choose to keep an open mind on the possession phenomenon.

I find it interesting that the Catholic church still has rites for exorcism, but they are not public. Someone of faith, perhaps their popes themselves, still believe.

I have seen Christian literature that discusses Schizophrenia in terms of demonic possession and I have sat in a discussion with a group of Christians about this subject. A Baptist minister and his wife told me that you can go onto a ward of mentally ill people and pray for them. Those who are ill become calm and relaxed and those who are possessed start to scream. I find this attitude completely unhelpful in an approach towards helping those with mental illness and it does nothing to reduce the stigma attached to an illness like Schizophrenia. I actually find this attitude offensive. I am not going to dismiss the notion that possession exists as it's one of those 'unprovable either way' things but mental illness is not evil.

NB. If a group of Christians came near me in hospital and held a prayer meeting I'd feel like screaming. just off to find myself an exorcist

Classic "Possession" is more likely to be interpreted by the medical profession as MPS than as Schizophrenia...

I was only commenting on Schizophrenia because that happened to be the illness focused on in the books I mentioned. Thinking about it I can see the reasoning behind linking MPS and classic "possession" but the idea of possession being the cause of the illness applies to all psychotic disorders, eg. someone experiencing a manic episode acquires a lot of strength and speed and can become aggressive and agitated as if "possessed". Having witnessed this dramatic change occur in someone I can see why hundreds of years ago, when medicine involved mixing potions, people believed psychosis was possession. I fail to understand why now though, some religious people still insist in labelling someone as evil. As I mentioned previously it's unhelpful and offensive.

Some cultures also recognise possession by "good" entities...

That was pretty much the premise behind the TV series "Quantum Leap" too...

*shivers* What sort of treatment is available for possession by Scot Backula?

*bookmarking*

In Thailand one is born with an animal nature, upon the controlling and conquering of it as a child, one becomes fully human and this is celebrated. Often, one's canine teeth are filed even as proof of this ceremony, so the child no longer 'looks feral'.

Near as I can tell, the animal portion of you is never expected to goes away entirely though. I don't know if this is still considered possession.

when was it agreed that satan and scott bakula were different

You may have a point and I'd never even realised.

Oh, and welcome to h2g2 I'm very tired and not making much sense to myself so I'm sure I'm not to anyone else. Hopefully I'll talk to you again, when I'm sure what day of the week it is

I know u were all here ages ago, but just in-case ure still around, i might aswell tell you some stuff.
The Roman Catholic Church recently(in the last 3 years) rewrote the rites of exorcism. It includes a warning not to confuse diabolic possesion of the spirit(their technical term), with scitsofrenia(sorry about spelling).
It may also interest you to know, that in the later years of the life of mother teresa, she had an exorcism performed on her. Pope John Paul 2 also performed an exorcism in 1982.

firsty

Hey, Firsty!

Yup, this was an old conversation, but a good one...

I've pretty much always believed that "intelligence" is an external phenomenon which just occupies any system complex enough to host it... "Possession", in the classic sense, would be an aggressive form of intelligence trying to take over a "niche" from a more "passive" intelligence... Where have you ever read a story where an aggressive a**hole is "possessed" by a calm, laid-back spirit?

lol

come to think of it, this description reminds me of many a teenage dopehead!
Argessive idiots who turn into mellow chilled out dudes!
weird

firsty

Depends on what you think of 'passive' as meaning.

I know some Buddhist nuns. Based on what I know about them and having seen them in times of crisis, I am thinking they would (if attacked first) quite calmly, mindfully, and clearly (metaphorically) beat to a bloody mess any 'intelligence' who thought they were a good place to inhabit.

It would appear to be the case that most clinical psychiatrists will have a "residue" of cases that defy and baffle all attempts to diagnose in terms of conventional analysis. While the scientific and medical community is such that anyone who publicly states that such a thing as possession happens will be treated as "flaky" or "cranky" (just try challenging orthodoxy in any profession and see where it gets you)dig out what psychiatrists are prepared to say anonymously or off the record. It might surprise you.

There are cases where pasychiatrists have collaborated with the churches in exorcisms for a variety of reasons. "We've tried everything else and this remedy may not cause actual harm to the patient, let's see if it has a placebo effect" is one.

"Let's perform this act of psychodrama, as the patient has pronounced religious views and it may actually be beneficial within the patient's world-view" is another;

"Something is going on which I genuinely cannot explain in any terms other than those of an external intelligence somehow acting upon this person's mind" is a third.

Certainly, the Reverend Donald Omand, who for many years was principal exorcist to the Church of Scotland, considered psychiatric assistance to be a genuine asset and often would not proceed without getting a report from a sympathetic practitioner or having one in attendance. (check him out - this man's experiences are well worth researching in this context)