h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Much talk here about the best player ever, what about the teams?

In club football - Man Utd now or in the sixties? Liverpool in late seventies/early eighties? Real Madrid now or in the fifties? AC Milan early nineties? Arsenal's double winners? Ajax also had a great team a few years back (and they weren't bad at cleaning cokkers either )

National teams? Can anybody compete with some of the best Brazilian sides? Remember the midfield of Zico, Falcao, Junior and Socrates? (And I know they didn't win that world cup).

Well all the oldies at the Arsenal reckon that the Busby Babes were the greatest side ever seen at Highbury in living memory - the last league game they played was at Hihgbury, the score was something like 5-4 to Man U. Remember that Bobby Charlton who was one of this countries finest midfielders of all time was only a lesser light in that side. That was a side which had youth and skill in abundance by all accounts.

Its hard to judge a current team - for me you can only look back and say that WAS a great team - much harder to judge what IS a great team - judged by trophies then Man U of the nineties and Liverpool in the eighties were great sides. Are trophies necessarily the hallmark of greatness - one of the best sides I've seen at Highbury was PSG in 93/94 but they didn't really ever win too much nor did the side stay together. I currently rate Real Madrid and expect them to retain the European Cup and AC Milan with the incomparable Franco Baresi dominated Italy and Europe while English clubs were banned.

Alas for the Busby babes. One will never know how many trophies they may have won as they were cut short at the begining of what may have been a great era.
I think trophy winning IS important although it may not be the be all and end all - as I mentioned above, Brazil had an amazing side in the 1982 world cup but they didn't win it. I think it was a better side than France at the moment or the last winning brazilian team though. When you say PSG were a great side to visit Arsenal, this may be true but surely a sides strength is measured in consitency and the ability to pull of many many excellent performances. The sort of thing that wins trophies - a lot of teams can pull off blinding performances one off. It is a tricky question though I must admit. Liverpool and Man Utd have accumulated many trophies between them but the 1993 Man U league champion side was not the same team as now. Similarly with Liverpool 1977 and 1984 sides. More of a great system to keep the standard of the team up really plus having a great manager helps.
I agree with you about Real Madrid at the moment. Nice to see Steve MacManaman doing so well there (I am biased about him though )

Alas for the Busby babes. One will never know how many trophies they may have won as they were cut short at the begining of what may have been a great era.
I think trophy winning IS important although it may not be the be all and end all - as I mentioned above, Brazil had an amazing side in the 1982 world cup but they didn't win it. I think it was a better side than France at the moment or the last winning brazilian team though. When you say PSG were a great side to visit Arsenal, this may be true but surely a sides strength is measured in consitency and the ability to pull of many many excellent performances. The sort of thing that wins trophies - a lot of teams can pull off blinding performances one off. It is a tricky question though I must admit. Liverpool and Man Utd have accumulated many trophies between them but the 1993 Man U league champion side was not the same team as now. Similarly with Liverpool 1977 and 1984 sides. More of a great system to keep the standard of the team up really plus having a great manager helps.
I agree with you about Real Madrid at the moment. Nice to see Steve MacManaman doing so well there (I am biased about him though )

In terms of sheer impact, I'd plump for the Puskas-inspired Hungary team that so humiliated England at Wembley. Prior to that moment, England were dominant in their ivory tower, playing their orthodox and somewhat lumpen 4-2-4 with little verve. Along come the Hungarians, in particular the 'Galloping Major', the roly-poly Ferenc Puskas, possessor of one of the greatest left feet in history. 5-3 to Hungary later, and it produced a revolution in how England thought about their football, leading indiretly to the revolution in thinking that led to the emergence of the quality players and tactics that led to '66.

A victory for Flair over Orthodoxy, sublime skill over hubristic complacency.

Ooh yeah I forgot to mention them above didn't I.

Nice one NexusSeven, they certainly have to be up there.

Certainly the Hungary sides performance must rate as the single most influential game in this country in modern times - all of the greatest managers over the subsequent 30 years quoted that game as opening their eyes as to the possiblities of changing the way football was played.

You mention the Ajax team from the middle nineties but how about the team in the early seventies. The won the European Cup three times on a row in 1971, 1972 and 1973. And in 1970 they reached the final. I don't no much about football in England (shame on me)but as a Ajax fan I know they were the best team at that moment.
In the following period the Dutch wasn't bad either. In 1974 and 1978 they reached the final of the world cup. The first (1974) was in Argentina, where they lost the final from .... Argentina. In 1978 the world cup was held in Germany and which teams played the final. Germany and The Netherlands, guess which team won.

I think the question is hard to answer, because in every period there are other players and teams who/which are very good. It is also very difficult to compare. The speed and force of playing at the moment is much faster and harder then in the seventies (for example).

In my opinion there is no best team ever. You just can't compare.

I think without doubt the Dutch are the 'best' team never to have won the world cup. Somehow they never quite seem to add up to more than the individuals in their team. The French have now fulfilled their potential and luvkily lots of them play for my team.

Ajax have had some great teams and players - why the slump at the moment? ( By the way thank you for Bergkamp and Kanuuuuuuu!!!!)

You are welcome enjoy these good players.

The momentarily sag of Ajax is due to (wrong) policy in the past. When van Gaal left to Barcelona he took a lot of good players with him. New players were bought but, although the quality was good, the coach couldn't build a team of them. Since then we had three coaches who weren't succesful.

The new coach is building a new team with a mix of youth players and older players. This seems to work but it takes time to build a team.
We did beat Arsenal in the Amsterdam Tournament at the beginning of this season though. In my opinion Ajax will be back at the top in 2004.

And about the Duth team, you are totally right (Isay this with pain in my heart)

The finest set of athletes ever to grace a field were the warriors of Hereford that beat Newcastle 2-1 in '72.
They had it all, such as, er mulletts, luck, and a 35 yard screamer from the right hammer of Ronnie Radford.
I never saw that Pele chap do that
could be wrong though

The problem inherent in trying to name the 'Best Team Ever' can be best illustrated by the history of Dutch football. If you judge it on trophies won then the team that won the European Championship in 1988 was the greatest ever Dutch National team. But was that team really better than the ones who contested the World Cup Finals in Argentina and Germany? I don't think so myself and they did certainly not reduce you to total disbelief like the teams did when Cruyff was playing. He might not have been the most popular person in the team but he was one of the most skilful and innovative footballers ever.
Also, over how long a period of time does one want to judge these things? One season? Five seasons? A decade? And are a club side who win a European trophy three years out of five better than an international side that qualifies for their international Finals? Cannot be compared. Lots of great teams never win anything and sometimes a not VERY good team can win something.
Like androyd, I thank Ajax for the Ice Man and Kanu (Dennis in particular has helped raise the level of play at Arsenal to fantastic heights) but I am also grateful for players whose skills enhance the modern game: Edgar Davids (who could NEVER play in England because he would be sent off all the time for his attitude let alone his tackles), Patrick Kluivert, Marc Overmars (gone to 'win things' at Barcelona but no longer in the Champions League ), Van der Sar to name but a few. I look forward to seeing the next successful Ajax side - there is certain to be one soon!
As for pain in your heart, I think one of the most horrible matches I have ever seen was during Euro '96 - I had the misfortune to be at Wembley. I just could not believe what I was seeing both on and off the pitch! Those fantastic Dutch players getting beaten accompanied by behaviour that gives British fans such a bad name! I was in a section for 'neutral' fans with a mixture of Dutch, English and random other fans and I was embarrassed to be English!

Don't be. The Dutch (mostly clubrelated) supporters are'n that sweet as you think.
We should be ashamed. The England team palyed very good that match and we were crap. It is amazing that you can lose by such figures and still make it to the next round.
This is why the system in the Championsleague isn't right.

Humph. If Holland hadn't scored that last goal Scotland would have qualified for the second round. Grumble grumble

I know! Tee hee!

I know that your domestic supporters are not all squeaky clean (the arranged fighting between Ajax and Feyenoord supporters in a car park far away from any match for example) but I don't think I will ever see the level of DISGUSTING behaviour from the Oranje fans that I saw from the England fans at Wembley that day. I was in Amsterdam the night Holland beat Denmark and, although a lot of Dutch people on the Metro seemed very wary of the Oranje fans, the groups of Danish and Dutch fans I saw seemed to be getting on fine. There was no taunting of the losing supporters like I saw at Wembley. My only consolation was that my team's goalkeeper (Seaman) and captain (Tony Adams) were not being made to look foolish as they have so often in the past against Holland!

I agree with you that supporters of the national team are very kind, even when they lose. Allthough some pizzerias were demolished when we lost from Italy the semi final of EC 2000. But this was mostly done by other people than supporters.
In Holland there is a difference in clubsupporters and fans of the national team. When, for example, the Dutch team plays a friendly match, most clubsupporters don't care. Therefore the atmosphere at games from the national team is much friendlier.

I cried after that match against Italy! I was just SOOOOO sad for Dennis (his last international match). As a friend said to me last Saturday (about the Arsenal match) 'they were never going to score even if they played until midnight' - just one of those days! A victory for negative, defensive football but the Italians did get their comeuppance in the final

I agree some days it ain't going to happen.

But in my Opinion the Italian squad deserved to win the final. They were much more offensive that match than France. Over the whole European Cup Final round the French were the best and therefore they deserved to win.

Can I just say that I saw the Euro '96 England v Holland match with 3 other Englishmen in a bar in The Netherlands, and the behaviour of our Dutch hosts that night was as impeccable as the domination of England was incredible.

About ten minutes from the end, the owner of the bar came over, shook our hands and congratulated us on the performance of our team, then started to sign up a group of disgruntled natives to head up to Schiphol the next day and throw rotten vegetables at their team. Thankfully, this wasn't needed, thanks to the late goal and the impotence of the Scots against Switzerland.

Had the situation been reversed - four Dutchmen celebrating in a packed English pub - I'm afraid that the outcome would have been a lot less pleasant. So, maybe not the best team ever; but some great fans (the old Ajax-Feyenoord rivalry notwithstanding)!