h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi.
So where are you? I live in Waldfeucht ("where?" is the correct reply to that) I don't know about you, but I have a love-hate relationship
with this country.
So.... how did you end up here?

Well, I just keep a low profile, try to integrate, have produced some hybrid kids - who are great - and live in Germersheim. Also "Where". Although I'm pretty good on villages with wierd names, having worked for the last seven years for a firm which delivers to sewage plants and every one horse town, wierd name or not, has a sewage plant.

Germersheim is a university town teaming with language experts. On the Rhine between Karlsruhe and Mannheim. I spent most of my time in Speyer.

After 20 ++ years, I think going back might be more of a thing to be brave about. How long have you been here and how do you feel about going back?

I've been here... well, it's complicated. I'm an Army (British Army, that is) brat. I was first here in '67 - '70 (as a small kid) then my parents came back in '78 (although I was in boarding school in England, and only got here for the holidays) Then in '84 I came here with the Army (having joined up myself) and after I left the Army in '90 I just stayed on.
But you're right - going back is much more scary. I'm also staying here "for the kids". Although we're both English, I'm keen for the anklesnappers to grow up bilingual. So far so good (although at 3 and a half and 22 months it's difficult to tell what language they're speaking. I sometimes wish I had more than a virtual !!)

O great - that's my pet subject - bilingual upbringings. Worth starting a forum on. I bet there's enough people around who grew up bilingual. German and English is unfortunately rather ordinary. However, according to one statistic (another pet subject) I once read, approx 54 % of the world's population are bilingual - so the exception is to be monolingual. Keep at it. Growing up realising there are more than one word for anything has so many advantages

- it is easier to learn a third word for it (i.e. more languages)
- when learning other languages it is easier to master the pronunciation provided the first two langs are properly pronounced
- generally these children, when at a stage where concepts can still be counted, have a far greater vocabulary than monolinguals. This was not recognised until recently becuase of course tests were always only done in one language. If you add the CONCEPTS together which are covered by both languages, you get a higher number than the number of CONCEPTS in a monolingual (which would equal his vocabulary in his single languages...er.. get it?)
- they are more tolerant as they are simultanously learning two cultures - which makes it easier to accept a third, as with the languages
- they are admired by other people's mothers. Careful not to embarrass them though - you have to know your child to know how far you can go.

For more read George Saunders book or go to www.bklein.de or there is another site by a mother in Norway, but I'll have to look up the address.

And one thing: never give up. I have been battling for 18 years now and have children whose English grandparents are proud of. The first signs of success came after 15-16 years. (Only because I am useless with kids and only managed to tune into my kids at that age).

And another thing. Don't ever let them get confused as to who they are. Difficult in your case, as they do not live where their roots are. But people who live a bicultural childhood can have identity crises like kids who get moved around a lot (I don't have to tell you that if you come from an Army family)

And here's a non seq. Translating place names can also cause a great laugh when you're out. It makes for a fun game. You might think there's not much dignity in living in a place called Wood Damp, but we have Hassloch (hate hole) Darmstadt (intestine town) near here and I am just dying to throw in Poppenbuettel for a laugh when a conversation crops up on this subject.
-

Sho - here's another address - better than the one I mentioned just now, I think, http://hjem.wanadoo.dk/~wan42942/frameset.html

Well, you know what you're on about (I think I'll have to pick your brain a lot over the next 16 years or so...) My kids are relatively young (3 and a half and 22 months) but I have noticed that Saskia (the elder) (the elder child, that is, not Saskia the elder a Prime-minister or something ) has a much bigger vocabulary than the other kids (monolinguists the lot, despite our proximity to the Dutch border) it's good to have an explanation for it though.

I'm quite worried about the identity crisis thing too, although I don't worry soooo much about it at the moment. What worries me more is that they don't get to UK much, and don't really know their English relatives (except as voices on the phone) We do what we can. I actually enjoyed my youth (as much as an Army brat can, I suppose) and suffered more from boarding school than anything else!

I'll check out that website though, and perhaps you should write a Guide Entry about bilingual children - to help the rest of us!!!!!

How do you cope with the German school system as a working mother??? (I have a husband in Erziehungsurlaub - sorry, for non-German speakers that would be Paternityleave - so it's not so bad at the moment.....

So, now I finally realise how these reply things work (ie. I can see the text of your message!! I'm still suffering from the pregnancy related porridge-brain syndrome) and I can reply properly...

I'm having real difficulty "relating" to my kids, I'm not really the mummy-type, and all the tantrums are - well, to say the least - draining. Ho hum. Maybe I can blame it on the fact that I'm English and my kids are not....

Talking about being admired by other people's mothers: it drives me mad when people try to talk to my kids in English (unless their English is perfect like wot mine are) when they have just heard them speaking German to other people. Grrr! I have a policy of speaking to kids up to the age of about 4 in English. They all seem to understand so far.

So far, the worst thing is that I don't know any of the songs they learn at the playgroup/kindergarten. But then, I do know loads of English ones, which they try to put into German sometimes for their friends.

Place names would also be a great thread, I just like the sound of loads of the names round here (Puffendorf, reminds me of a fantasy film I saw as a kid) and Neuss-Grimlinghausen

By the way, my motto is: Bilingual kids have twice the fun. I think that puts it in a nutshell!!

You're doing OK. I am not a mummy type at all either. But when it's your own kids you react properly, don't worry. Treat them like people and you can't go wrong. Baby language was fortunately never my forte - nor my mother's, so I never had any problems with that like some of my monolingual friends German mothers and mothers-in-law.

If the tantrums get too much, try videoing it and showing the kid what an idiot she looks. Kids hate being laughed at, but if you can turn that into a comedy show, she might calm down. If she doesn't - well she's just got to go through it like teething, so just let it pass. When she's 16 you'll wonder what the fuss was about.

And don't stop at 4 with speaking English. Carry on regardless. Mine are now at the stage where their schoolfriends have learned enough English to understand.

The German kids' songs are great fun. But you don't need to know them. My kids don't know who "Frau Holle" is. At least they haven't got it instilled into them. My help was a sister-in-law who is a kindergarten teach and was great with the kids when they were 3 -6 years old and my mother-in-law (rest her soul) who was a child nurse and was such fun with them at pre-kindergarten age.

If you haven't already, do find some other people in a similar position (not necessarily English/German bilingual families, but any kind of bilingual, but best in English) and start a playgroup. We had one for some three years - fortunately the best time for my older children. They had friends who were in the same situation which was great support not only for the mothers, we learned the tradtional songs and did action songs, read the typical English stories to them, exchanged videos. We met regularly once a week until the oldest ones started school. For my straggler a few years later we also had a similar group.

It's exhausting, you have to plan every minute of the morning. But it was worth it. The problem is the mothers, they natter and distract.

The playgroup also fell apart in a way because of divergent attitudes to learning to read. I taught mine to read English before they started school - another mother was dead against this. So for the last few weeks we separated off the three biggest - all boys, school beginners - and did things like astronomy and science with them, but without writing or reading. The Germans are so against people learning to read until they are seven or eight. It drives me mad. They seem to think that once you can read, you stop being able to play.

Things were made easy for me working in Germany because my husband was a teacher and was home at lunch time. The youngest went to a Kindergarten which kept the kids in over lunch (normally not my idea of what to do with a three-year-old, but it was my sister-in-law's kindergarten and so he was with his aunt).

So I repeat - don't bother about not knowing the songs and the stories they learn. You will pick this up anyway, and if you're intersted the kindergarten teachers will lend you books or photocopy the words for you I'm sure. It's your job though, to teach them English songs. Get tapes, repeat, repeat, repeat. All children learn by repeating. Tapes are ideal for when you're fed up yourself. Talk to them, let them watch videos, make up stories. I told bed-time stories for a while, that I made up as I went along, and later I just started them off and let them fill in words. "Once upon a time there was a little boy who had a.....". A friend of mine was reading Peter Rabbit to her then little 4-year-old.. Once upon a time there were four little rabbits, Flopsy, Mopsy, Cottontail and (sentence is completed by child "Bugs Bunny".

Even if you repeat stories, songs and nursery rhymes dozens of times ad nauseam, they're still only getting half the input of a monolingual child, because they're learning German (and even Dutch) rhymes at the same time.

More to come. Keep your pecker up. Look at the ImF page I mentioned and see if you can find Multilingual Matters in London. I haven't had much luck yet. They published books and a monthly newsletter which was really great. It was started by George Saunders and most of the work up to about 10 years ago was done by Marjukka Grover (Finnish/English).

I'm very happy that we never subscribed to that baby language thing. It drives me nuts to hear a cat referred to as a "mimi" or a dog as a "wauwau" yuk. Most of our neighbours speak a vile form of Platt, which I try to avoid as much as possible, but in general I can't complain. The kindergarten teacher is impressed with the speed with which Saskia has picked up German (a case of having to - she's the only non-native kid there!) and the range of her vocabulary. That's probably because I used to read her the newspaper (she got to hear something and I got to read the paper) She also watches "way too much tv" although, having said that, mostly in English (thanks to Sky) or Die Sendung mit der Maus (I like it)

Sometimes I can cope with the tantrums, mostly not (I sometimes have a bit of a tantrum myself) but I'm working on my temper at least I don't hit them - that would be a big deal then. I know they'll grow out of it, but I find it hard having been "away" all week (I see them for 1/2 hour before bedtime) and then plan to do stuff at the weekend (even if it's only playing with Lego) and they don't want to. The perils of being a working mum, I suppose.

I think we've managed to strike a sort of happy medium. We have one or two friends who are bi-lingual families (although I'm not sure we are, to be honest) and the kids all play together in a mixture of German/English/madeupstuff. I'm glad we do it though. It would be very easy (as did an acquaintance of mine) to speak German all the time (his wife speaks nothing but) and now their kids (going to the Gymnasium) have to learn English from scratch. What a waste! (Oh got to stop this smugness!)

I, in opposition to most people in the world these days, prefer to read a story as it is written. We follow the words with my finger, and I leave gaps and change things slightly sometimes. Saskia puts me right every time. Then, if the book is in German, I ask her what the English words are - she makes them up if she doesn't know!! Same from English into German. She really loves the Eric Carle books (we only have some in German) and the Beatrix Potter stuff (we only have them in English). I can't wait to get her started on the Narnia books and other such stuff.

Before I went back to work I toyed with the idea of starting a playgroup type thing for teaching kids English (Helen Doron, do you know it?) and I'm still thinking about it. Not liking kids particularly much is a bit of an obstacle though although I have done stints teaching kids (from age 7) English, and I liked that.

Thanks for the advice though..... I'll be back for more!

Not liking kids - tell me about it!!!

No I don't know Helen Doron.

What exactly is your setup - both parents English, both speaking fluent German, or what?

If you can't speak perfect German, I think it is wrong to speak it to the children. They pick up mistakes quicker than they pick up the proper stuff. This sounds smug now, but I really worked hard to get my German perfect and I need it - as a secretary, you can't afford not to know exactly how to write everything. My children speak very good Hochdeutsch, and can do the local dialect. Their English is also very well pronounced, but not too much so and doesn't sound unnatural. They also copy my awful Suffolk accent .... as long as they know the difference I don't mind. (Something like table manners ... I know they're not going to make a mess and talk with their mouths full when eating away from home, even if they do do it at home)

But to get back to the point at the top of the last paragraph - I find it so embarassing hearing people talking German to their children when they can't do it well. Why can't they speak Turkish/French/English/Russian. Quite honestly, I would not be able to talk a foreign language to my children, the fruit of my womb.

One thing I strictly forbid - and this is really the only thing, as otherwise they are very good anyway, is speaking a mixture of languages. It's pure laziness. I never do it myself, unless it is impossible not to, such as you are using a German expression which doesn't exist in English - or to make a point. Then I use oral "inverted commas" to demonstrate that I know I'm diverging from the language spoken. And I would only use it where I am sure the other people in the conversation know what it means, with all its connotations.

As far as people speaking Platt is concerned, see my notes on that somewhere else (don't ask me where). I think all dialects are to be nurtured and encouraged and I just love them.

You are SO LUCKY that your daughter is the only non-native child in Kindergarten. This must be the only kindergarten in Germany with no immigrants. Don't publicise the fact or it'll be crowded.

TV is fine if the kids can cope. They should be able to distinguish between real and pretend. Often kids react very differently to cartoons and to series or plays acted by real people. Don't assume, make absolutely sure they realise what is real and what is not.

Sendung mit der Maus is ideal for this. They also have a series of videos, with all the items alphabetically listed.

'And after all this, might I just add that I wish I'd spoken Hungarian or Spanish or Mandarin to my kids, because now they're learning it at Gymnasium (one in 5th, one in 10th and one in 12th grade) I wonder why I bothered with English. They easily get cocky and think they know it all. A good teacher who incorporates them in the teaching is vital - otherwise they are bored stiff for the first 2 years and lose interest and then miss the boat when it gets to a stage where they would start learning new things.

More to come.

Well, actually I think "not liking kids" is a bit strong. I like my kids. I like (mostly) my friends' kids. I have next to no interest in babies, toddlers, primary school aged children. Secondary school aged kids are ok. Unless they're talking about "music" (and I have to put that in inverted commas, because I'm too old to like it) I came to childbearing after a long selfish streak, it wasn't something I really planned for myself, but it's ok now it's happened.

Helen Doron started a system of teaching pre-school kids to speak English in small groups, always taught by a native speaker, using play and singing. The children take a cassette of songs home with them, and listen to it every day. The more often the better. It sounds good, but it's a type of franchise arrangement, where you have to pay for your training (around DM 1,000 which I didn't have at the time) so I haven't done it. But I'm still thinking.

Our setup. Both parents English. Both speak fluent German (I'm better than my husband). I speak the Queen's English (as my rough equivalent of Hochdeutsch) and my husband comes from Middlesborough. He tries very hard to pronounce his Ts and Hs, but I have noticed a few northernisms creeping in with Saskia. Which is OK for now. I only ever speak English to my kids. I too have worked very hard to try to perfect my German (still make howlers though) but I think, since we express ourselves so much better in our native tongue, that it's always ALWAYS better to speak to them in English. Saskia always tells me to speak English if she hears me talking to other kids or anyone else in German. You must have experienced it too, if a group of children need an instruction or something from you, it's easier to give it in German. They always make a mess and talk with their mouths full, eat with their fingers and slurp their drinks. I won't allow it much longer. Right now I'm just glad they're eating (the little one often goes for days eating just enough to keep a sparrow alive). But I digress.

I don't worry too much about them speaking the local dialect, in fact I'm all for preserving that type of thing, as long as they learn it alongside the Hochdeutsch. My Grandad speaks pure Yorkshire, sometimes I can't understand him at all - but at least he can give me a translation.

I sometimes mix German/English in the same sentence. Usually it's if I don't know the other language's equivalent. Or if I'm explaining a phrase (er hat nicht mehr alle Tassen im Schrank - I love that one) which I have translated literally. Again, Saskia forbids it. She's going to grow up to be the language police

I found out last evening that there is an American boy in the kindergarten. Different group. And they only speak German to each other. I'm planning to start off teaching Saskia French when she's 4 (if I think she'll cope - which I'm sure she will, she loves Frere Jacques, and knows that it's a 3rd language) nothing too flashy though, or she won't have anything to do at school. Which brings me to my next question: what did your children do during English lessons at school? I worry that if they take part they'll come over as know-it-alls, but what do they do if they don't go to the lessons (Latin springs to mind - I'm a sadist like that)?

I'm pretty sure that my big one can tell the difference between cartoons/acting on tv and real life. But I forbid lots of stuff (Pokémon springs to mind) and I'm not a big fan of watching violent stuff (only since I became a mum though, never used to bother me that much before)

I just signed my big one up for music school - sadist there too - so we'll see how that helps. I'm sure music & language learning have a connection in the brain.

Oof - that's a lot of points to comment on.

Accents: my Scottish friends' children speak with a quite strong accent which they picked up from their mothers, who weren't speaking with a strong accent. Somehow it got magnified as the kids used it. And when they had had contact with their Scottish relatives of course, it was even stronger. Another friend's daughter can say in lovely Yorkshire "put a sock in it".

Music and language are related. So is maths related to them. Mine are all good at maths. They have it from my side of the family and from my husband's father. He actually studied maths, which was a waste of time because that was in the 30's and his professor was Jewish so all the studying and degree wasn't recognised. In the war my father-in-law did German/Italian translations, having had a classical education.

My older two are good at Latin because we bred them that way (careful choice of partner). Unfortunately in our small town there is no choice of Latin as a first language, so they had to do English. This was preferable to letting them travel miles to the next school which offered Latin. I never did work out what they did in the lessons - it depended very much on the teacher. Perhaps I can get them to write a report on it. Our school also offers a bilingual stream. Next year the oldest will be doing his oral history exam in English for his Abitur.

By the way, I tidied out my handbag this morning and found the address in Norway I told you about. Not sure if it's still there: [Broken link removed by Moderator]

Perhaps we ought to continue this conversation privately

Sorry. I get carried away. (Bilingual children is one of my current pet/soapbox subjects)

Privately sounds good to me, because I bet this one can run & run & run. I just thought of something else which gets on my nerves: Germanising (if that's allowed) of English words, as in "ich habe Dich gemailed" Aaarrggghhhh!

[email protected]

Hi Trillian´s Child,

Got your message on my homepage. Thanks for commenting. I didn´t think there was anybody intrested and only accidently run into your posting. So I poped round, saw you are intrested in bilinguality and thought, Wow, been there, done that.

I am quite pro bilingulatiy as I profit of it myself. My mother´s german, my dad english. That was quite 0K, but we had a lot of english people around and it was neccesery to use english with american children on the base. Luckily I do not have any broad accents, as most of our german relatives ar Hochdeutsch-speakers. and I havn´t aquired any dialects, exept the odd expression, woisch?

Well, perhaps I will find some time to coment a little more.

Funny, my dad does a little teaching in Germersheim. Thats where you live, isn´t it?

Yes, I do live in Germersheim. Is he at the university?

I am also interested to know your answer to Sho's question about what you did at school. I have asked both my bigger boys to write it down for me, too. They never really talked much about it. Perhaps I should ask the little one who is just starting. Then we can compare and see if we can't shake up the system here. It certainly needs it (see my notes somewhere to Sho for my opinions on that).

Did you go to a German school? The Americans have left Germersheim now, of course, apart from a few, because it is still a NATO base, even if not a US base. While they were here, I got into contact with them and the boys joined the Cub Scouts. Met some great people that way, but, being Americans, they haven't written since.

Did your parents read any books or look into the scientific/psychological side of this bilingual thing or did they - as one should, really - just treat it as the normal thing to do and just did it?

The point about identity and roots is the main one for me. You can't always arrange it, but here, as for anyone, whether they speak one language or 6, I expect basically, a stable home and a network of relatives is as vital to humans as it is to ants or antelopes, and roots are created in someone's head when they have somewhere where they can play with the neighbours' children and are happy at school or wherever. Maybe it can be all summed up in creating memories.

Sorry I seem to be getting a bit deep here.

Butting in again....
About the roots thing. I was born in Sheffield, Yorkshire, and lived there for about 18 months, I went there for weekends ocasionally from school (to my grandparents), and very recently my parents moved back there. I consider it my home, even though I don't know anyone there apart from my immediate family, and despite the fact that of my 36 years in existance (there, admitted it! ) I have spent 24 of them in Germany!

hey, i was just wondering, does the reiperbahn (probably mis-spelled, i know) still exist. that's where the beatles played while in hamburg in the very early sixties. if it does, is there still music clubs on it? i realize that none of seem to live in hamburg, but aside from my uncle heinz, (who hasn't lived in germany for like, twenty years), no one seeems to be able to help. to add the the bi lingual thing; it can be great, if it's done right. going to schools where there is often 25% (thats more of an example then a specific figure) recent immigrants, our education system has realized that it is very rare for the children to speak their second language better then their first, so learning the first better increases learning of the second. as far as learning both at the same time goes, i've no idea. i guess this had more to do with bilingualism then i thought in the comment line.

It does still exist, and it is spelled "Reeperbahn". And it is still the "sinfull mile" as it is known to germans. Have a look at the homepage of the City of Hamburg. I guess it could be something like www.hamburg.de There is bound to be a link somewhere.

thanks

That's an interesting point and I wish someone in Europe would think of that. (Your comment about Bilingualism, Fatty)

Reeperbahn is more of a drug turnover place and tourist attraction now. There is also an entry here in the Guide about Hamburg, I remember reading way back, and it mentions the Reeperbahn. Follow through Earth - Europe - Germany.