h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

For Thomas or anyone else

Thanks for that Cass.

As I said yesterday, the first part of your essay is quite a good one and some questions arised in the second part. I´ll take this thread to have our conversations on both parts of the whole essay.

In the first paragraph in Part Two you wrote about

"Sarkozy of France was able to persuade a majority of the citizens of England´s "old enemy", that the "Anglo-Saxon way" was the best "way ahead" for their nation: and once again "Anglo-Saxon" finally meant a "triumvirate" of Great Britain, the USA and Germany."

I must have missed this when made these remarks to the French people and I haven´t come across anything reported on that in Germany. That´s something new to me and I wonder what took you to this conclusion?

Thomas

Hi Thomas

The theme of those Medieval pieces is what the Modern World can learn from the Middle Ages.. for in many ways the whole European Union is an attempt to recreate some over-arching European identity that over-rides the Nation State that (nowhere perhaps more clearly than in Germany and Italy whose unification as Nation States in many ways tipped Europe over the edge) created a modern era in Europe and the world that has been one of conflict. Perhaps one might say also of Anglo-Saxon compromise, pragmatism , "rationalization" and "realpolitik".

This definitely was the kind of theme that M. Sarkzoy placed before the French electorate when he stood for the Presidency. Rather like the Millibands in Britain, he could characterize himself as being the child of East European immigrants who had come from Hungary to a land of Human Rights and opportunity, and that "the way ahead" for France would involve learning to have closer relations with the leaders of the USA, the UK and Germany- employing many of the values, practices etc with which those countries and economies were facing the challenge of the New Millenium..

Of course the French never "copy" or follow anyone. It may well have been a French scholar who wrote that the Ancient Greeks invented very little, but they had a genius for seeing what other people were doing and then taking rough prototypes and developing their full-potential. The French tend to see themselves (to my mind) rather like that. It takes a French cook to really elevate the food of other cultures to a truly "Fine Art".

If you look at my Guide Entries there was one that I started writing on our lawn in France, on what I then discovered was the day that France assumed the Presidency of Europe: and it seemed very appropriate for my vision of "Paris at the Heart of Europe".

In the defeat of President Sarkozy last year, M. Hollande was able to harness a great deal of discontent and propose that there was a more traditional French Way- after the Anglo_Saxon excessive "Liberalization" had done so much damage. M. Hollande could show France as the spokesman of the Mediterranean countries that are in such dire trouble and campaign for more of the same old post-war reconstruction Capital spending in order to create growth through Consumerism.

It seemed really significantly that when I was over there recently President Hollande opened a lavish new museum/exhibition centre in Marseilles which celebrates the greatness of the whole Mediterranean Civilization since Ancient times..This of course is very much in an old French tradition of having a special relationship with the Civilized parts and elements of the Islamic World.

But that "Roman based" version of history has always tended to either ignore or under-value the history of the other great sea which is in many ways similarly placed- the Baltic Sea. And I always think that it was no accident that Martin Luther's protest arose in Northern Germany where presumably the fall of Constantinople and the further advance of Turkish power to the mouth of the Danube had an impact on all the trade and commerce that flowed north and south along the rivers between the Baltic and the Black Sea- creating all those "great cities" to which Winston Churchill made referrence in his "Iron Curtain" speech in 1946.

A couple of years ago I read a History of Archaeology that brought out (in one chapter) the startling discoveries in Denmark of Northern Cultures and Societies that could not be explained by the "Torch of Civilization" story of Civilization having all been invented in the Fertile Crescent and then spread from there by missionaries. And the whole "Viking/Scandinavian" era of History is being subjected to constant revisionism, as (in fact) increasingly people have been looking to "the Scandinavian model" for answers.

President Hollande has tried his best to win over Mme Merkel, Mr Cameron and President Obama to his own vision of the 'way ahead'. But he has a very week hand to play and it is unlikely that "Anglo-Saxons" will be prepared to provide more loans and subsidies to a country that could believe in the 35 hour working week and retirement variously from 50 years of age.

Cass

"Reflections on Paris as the Heart of Europe"

http://h2g2.com/entry/A42642579

Hi Cass,

Having noticed your reply on peanut from yesterday it´s good to see that most things are well with you.

Now I´ve finished to read part two of the Thatcher essay and find both parts quite interesting. As you know that in my interest on history the economical matters were rather neglected and just seen in the wider context of historical developments. So I appreciate your essays with the focus on these matters. They explain a lot and although you end in part two with the early 1930s, where she was still a child it gives some background information on her view on economics beyond that common knowledge direved from her Fathers Grocery Shop. It also shows that every generation is shaped by their early experiences of themselves as well by those of their parents.

Thanks for your reply on the part of Sarkozy in your essay. I´ve to admit that this went along unnoticed by myself, for we have always the French-German Friendship in our focus as the so called "motor of the EU". Such is the way it most went and the best example is the "special relationship" between the USA and the UK during the past century. I was too much involved with what was going on in NI during the time of the "Flag protests" and with Irish matters in general. I´ve noticed (and watched) the press conference given by the British PM Cameron on his proposals towards the EU and in particular his pledge on an referendum about Britains membership in the EU. From the outset some post, although still in general terms, were quite interesting to me. I´m also for years waiting for someone bringing some reform spirit into the EU and make it better, more direct democracy and shifting of power from the EU Council to the EU Parliament on one side but also to not give too much power away from the national states to the Union. But I lost track on this and it might become an topic again for the EU Parliament elections next year. The other still from time to time observed topic is the referendum on Scotlands independence in September next year. I hope that the UK will not break up and that common sense will prevail upon the ambitions of the SNP.

I´ll read the other essay on Paris and while you´re in France, I´ll see how far I get with reading the other essays still unknown to me.

It would be kind if you could let me know when you´ll be back from France to see whether we can meet on here before I start into my holiday for a fortnight from 01st September onwards.

In case we don´t meet on here today or before you leave for France, I wish you a safe journey and a good time there. Please give my regards to your wife from the "unknown German from the old BBC MBs" and take care.

Kind Regards,

Thomas

Morning Thomas

When writing about those years 1925-1932 I was very conscious of the fact that in a very deep way my whole life has been dominated by the same number of years between 1944 and 1951. In a not dissimilar way I was aware as soon as I was aware of being born into an age that was trying to climb up out of Hell towards a better place, and became a small part of the political circles that seemed to be building a better future. Like the young Thatcher I too was involved in local politics etc. But felt things sliding away when things like Bevan referring to the Tories as "vermin" and then the Wilson/Bevan revolt of 1951 which brought down the Attlee Government and the Labour project for a "One Nation Britain". Trying to understand just why it had been so difficult to "turn a page of History" became a central part of my life's work. And I believe to Mrs Thatcher's too.

As for the German v France "motor of Europe" of course that "special relationship" has tried to address what was in many ways the dominant theme of Modern European History- as I have just been writing in Part Three. Historians identified a crucial fault line North South 'Axis' across Europe from Germany to Italy that over thousands of years has become crucially important and active at moments when "The Eastern Question" (the threat of either power or weakness from the East) has been important. In many ways France was the greatest Kingdom in Europe for about 500 years from the reign of St. Louis- But the 'electoral college' system by which both the Emperor and the Pope were selected militated against French Emperors and French Popes, and in favour of German and Italian ones.

But after 1945 that Axis-fault line was right up against the Iron Curtain and the Common Market-EEC served a very useful purpose in the Global Strategy to fast-track West Germany back into full statehood as one of the Six - bringing West Germany, Italy and France within a more stable block. But, in many, ways the whole thing was based on the "vive la difference" principle, not exactly a marriage but a "cohabitation": and as my mother-in-law has said "They say that men and women were never made to live together". So yes the task of bringing together France and Germany , and making it work, has become the driving force of Europe.

But- as I am going to go on to say of Mrs. Thatcher "robbing the poor to pay the rich"- C.R.Fay, who I quoted extensively in pt 2, added another piece in 1949 about the Welfare State wondering just how long the young and fit will be prepared to work to pay for a better life for the old and unfit, and suggesting that perhaps only so long as they thought it could be done by seizing the wealth of the erstwhile rich..So I always felt that to some extent an important part of the EEC was the unspoken "post-war reparations" in which the West Germans staged yet another Economic Miracle based upon industrialization and engineering, while giving generous support to French agriculture in the light (amongst other things) of the massive amounts that French Agriculture had to supply to Nazi Germany according to the Armistice Terms that were never accepted by the French with any belief that they would endure for four years.

But- of course- the end of the Cold War, and especially the reunification of Germany, followed by other States that had been blighted by Soviet-imposed regimes, has changed the focus.

And thinking of Mr. Sarkozy and the Anglo-Saxon thrust of his own presidency, perhaps nothing is/was more indicative than the speed and unamity with which Christine Lagarde (Sarkozy's Finance Minister) was so quickly chosen to head the IMF, when voices had bee raised suggesting that the post should come from somewhere new..Of course Mr. Straus-Kahn had been French too. But a French Socialist. Mme Lagarde is very much a pro-Anglo-Saxon Frenchwoman.. In view of the forthcoming final of the Women's Football European Cup- with Germany (as ever?) making the final, it may be a very English/British prejudice, but I feel that all Germans would respect Mme Lagarde for many things- and among them the fact that in her younger days she was part of the French National Synchronized Swimming Squad. There is precision, discipline for you- but perhaps blended with artistry and flair.

As for the David Cameron initiatives in Europe, there does appear to be some support amongst the more Northern States- Protestant small-scale, industrious etc- with Mme Merkel very conscious of the crucial role of Germany in holding everything together, but (one suspects) by no means hostile to effective reform- and should the Coalition Government in the UK continue to show that "rolling back the State" (and its constant need to increase the National Debt) can lead to economic growth and social regeneration the "Anglo-Saxon way" will probably be thought to have proved itself once more.

As for future contact past the next few days- it looks like we will have to continue after your holiday.. Meanwhile thanks as ever.. You have actually encouraged me to get on with part three.

Regards

Cass

Hi Cass,

I take it that way that you´re writing on a third part to the Thatcher essay (?), otherwise I´d be rather confused about your reference in your post.

Personally, I regard Mme Legard as an high intelligent and capable woman and I thank you for telling me some more about her background. Also thanks for your thoughts on Cameron and your opinion on his ideas (as far as they are revealed to the present). I´d agree on your view that Chancellor Merkel is not fond of EU reforms, that´s a rather plain matter. We´ve our general elections in September this year and you can imagine that I won´t vote for her, as I never did. I´ll place my votes on the candidates of the SPD and the Green Party, such as ever. We have to votes on the ballot paper, the first for an direct candidate and the second for the list of an party. So I can vote on the first vote for an SPD or Green Party candidate and on the second for one party list. I´m afraid that she might manage it again to win the election, even then with an very close result. I´m not happy about that, I´d rather appreciate a change in the federal government. But either way, it´s the result I have to bear with whether I like it or not. Such is the way of democracy.

I´ve already noticed that you´re to prepare for your leave and in case we can´t be in contact until my return from holiday, I wish you all the best and I hope that we´ll meet again on here around the 16th September.

I´m glad you appreciate my opinions on your essays and I´ve to admit that in compare to the rather heavy Towards Project, you´ve improved your essays for they have become less complicated but still very informative and still covering a wide range of aspects.

As I said before, I´ll try to read some more of your essays as good as I´ve got the time while you´re in France.

Take care and till the next time.

Bon Voyage.

Regards,
Thomas

Hi Thomas

I am glad that you are enjoying these pieces.

As I have said I think that the end of Mrs Thatcher's life and work ( because I am not really writing just about her period in office but really what shaped it- from beginning to end) has helped me to take an overview of what I was tempted to call "My Struggle" because it often felt like that- only after Hitler's "Mein Kampf" no-one else could say that.

But I suppose that I am writing really about "Her Struggle" - and as she was more or less my parents and parent's in laws generation- she provides a very convenient 'foil' around which to focus and refine many of the ideas that I have been working on and pulling out 'bits and pieces' from the body of my various writing

So I believe that it makes it much easier for other people to relate to my thinking, because, as you have said about what I wrote about 1925-32 it is, I think, quite easy to see how those early experiences (when at the start Winston Chrurchill was Chancellor of the Exchequer) in many ways shaped her for life.

Our Prom on Wednesday started with Elgar's Falstaff- and we all felt disadvantaged by not really having much familiarity with Shakespeare's Henry V and the various aspects of Falstaff life and character that Elgar was trying to depict in sound. The military drumming of course was an obvious "clue"- but much of the rest was rather like an Impressionist tone poem- a musical Monet's Water Lilies.

Regards

Cass

Hi Thomas

We delayed our departure- a bit. which has given me the time to finish part three.

Enjoy your summer

Regards

Cass

Thanks you very much for that Cass.

Enjoy your time over there in France as well. I hope you´re well and we´ll meet again in September.

Regards,
Thomas

Having read the Paris essay, I found it quite interesting and the best part of it which also speaks my mind is the following quotation:

"... . But perhaps people are getting fed up with pressurised marketing aimed at “the average man” and wish to be acknowledged as special and unique individuals, who are cherished for their individuality as part of a human family that is, and always has been, infinitely variable- like the ever changing weather."

I´m for individualism and your example is just one thing that touches this matter.

Thomas

Hi Thomas

Just back from France. Glad you found that piece interesting.

Reading input in France will feed into this project. I finished Thatcher's Memoirs in French- with the translators repeating that she used the French word "etatism" in her comments about "rolling back the State", a move that she shared with French Socialism, as I have discovered in reading "On the Left" by Pierre Maurois PM of the "Union de la gauche" from 1981. Very interesting, in view of the very conservative and Victorian/Edwardian obsessions of the Labour Party in that period to read of the very modern, contemporary and future orientated views of French Socialism. Chimed with Mrs. T's description of French Socialism as being at least "intelligent" and her interesting relationships with Mitterand whose Presidency was more or less co-terminous with her Premiership. Interesting especially to read of their shared concerns over the re-emergence of "the German Problem" with the prospect of re-unification: How to create a balanced and stable Europe with such a singularly great power? Too big a beast to be comfortably contained with the European continent.

Intereresting cultural comment on the difference between Thatcher and Maurois looking back on their times in office. Thatcher just gives short summaries of the debates that informed her decisions and actions, and the almost scientific analysis of the lessons to be learned. Maurois for the most part focuses on the intellectual concepts and philosophies that informed his actions in office, early on willingly embracing the labels of "utopian" and "visionary" that were being thrown at the new Left Wing government.

But then Mrs.Thatcher, having made sure that she borrowed some great works of art from museums to decorate 10 Downing Street etc., commented how President Giscard had remarked on being expected to face Wellington and Nelson, and how she replied that of course when she was in Paris she was confronted with celebrations of Napoleon.. On reflection, however, looking back she observed that there was a crucial difference. Wellington and Nelson had been victorious. Napoleon had been defeated twice.

Thatcher wanted to remind the British that they were winners by nature. Maurois writes for people who have been losers, but might yet manage to change the Future.

Cass

Hi Thomas

I think that you are coming back soon and I wanted to advise you not to read part three yet.. On my return it seemed to me to have been a bit too rushed and not as coherent as it should be. I have been doing some re-writing which is nearly complete and will replace the existing text soon.. Hope you had a good break.

Cass

Hi Cass.

Thanks for your two posts. As for the latter, I´ve started with part three just yesterday for I´ve been busy with other things in the past couple of weeks while you´ve been to France. I´ll wait until you´ve installed the reviewed part three and start to read then.

Our holiday in Ireland was accompanied by good weather for most of the one week we stayed there, it changed over the weekend and just when we had visited most of the places we liked to go. Some historical place was among the various sites. We went to the Michael Collins Centre which is situated some 10 minutes drive off Clonakilty, Co. Cork. Brought some books on Irish history with me from my holiday, most of them related to Michael Collins, but one of them about the Labour Party in Ireland. Also an Irish dictionary for I found it sometimes inevitable to look some words up when reading books about Irish history (not that I have some intentions to learn that language for it sounds more complicated when it comes to pronunciation in difference to writing).

I hope you´ve at least some of a good time in France too and not too much work to do.

Kind Regards,
Thomas

Hi Thomas

Welcome back .. Your breaks to Ireland no doubt have much in common with my breaks to France, as (I believe) your wife is Irish, and in many ways your effort to get to grips with Irish History and culture is not unlike mine with France.

Yesterday I wrote at length about my time in France on the Hedgehog thread - so I will not repeat it all. I am sure you can skim it and get the gist.

Hopefully the Part Three will be finished in the next couple of days.. But I am wondering about breaking it up by sub-headings as it has become quite long.. Do you think that they help? I am never convinced when I actually read things.. But perhaps it is less off putting for the prospective reader than massive unbroken walls of text. Newspapers must do it for a reason.. But that is probably because most people just browse most of the paper.

Cass

Hi Cass.

To begin with, my wife isn´t Irish, she´s German but is more fond of Ireland than me. Between ourselves, it´s me being the "English admirer" and her on Ireland. My own interests on Ireland are just based on its history and politics (in the historical context, not day-to-day affairs). To me, England (or Britain in a wider sense) comes first and Ireland rather second. If there wouldn´t be so many links between England and Ireland in their relations, I´m not so sure whether I would had any deeper interest on Irelands history at all (referring to what one notices on the surface as an tourist). I´m more convinced, from my own experiences over the years on the BBC MBs that - despite some rows with some posters there - I feel more to get on very well with the English than with the Irish. It´s something in the Irish mentallity that always leaves me restrained or better to say their mentallity doesn´t fits my own. Maybe it´s just the fact that I can´t do otherwise for in the end I´m what I am, just a German. When in contact with Irish people (in the real world), I perceive them as most friendly and helpful. When they learn that we are Germans, they are even some bit more kind to us.

As for France. The Landlord who served us in the B&B Accommodation told us that he can´t get on well with the French and that he doesn´t like them very much. Some point he made by this towards mentality differences in the first place.

As for part three on your essay, I think that it might be helpful to have sub-headings but I leave it to your decision where to set them. It does makes it easier to read and probably to recall, but by all means it´s better for reference when commenting on parts of it.

Thomas

Thomas

Thank you for correcting me about your wife..

Your remark about the Irish reminded me that- on the recent death of Seamus Heaney- I was reminded yet again of the Irish poet I encountered at university back in the 60s who was sellling a poetry magazine..The Civil Rights movement had probably just about burst- And at the same time I was studying Medieval History. So I asked him (as I have subsequently done to many Irish people since -usually never to get a substantive answer) just when Ireland had ever been a secure, and stable neighbouring State to England- one with a government able to not only guarantee security and a "King's Peace" throughout the whole island - and be able to enter into international obligations with England that guaranteed that no Irish turbulence would spill over into England- either in the forms of perpetrators or victims.

The Celtic fringes of the British Isles ( all of whom to my mind fail that test) are famous for their poetical and fanciful imagination, the kind that can flourish in isolation when you do not actually have to confront the challenges of 'civil' society..People living such lives of isolation are often renowned for their great friendliness to the occasional visitor that they may or may not get for a few years per year.. But it is not too hard to be pleasant to people who are here today and gone tomorrow.. It's the people you have to live with 24/7 who present the real challenge.

And re neighbours and the French- It was the experience of the French as neighbours that persuaded most of the Western Germans to join in a new Prussian led German Empire- the Prussians having roots in the Teutonic knights and later forces that had traditionally defended Europe from threats coming from the East- that gradually became the Russian Empire and the USSR.

Cass

Hi Cass,

Thanks for your interesting post. The point you raised about

"... when Ireland had ever been a secure, and stable neighbouring State to England- one with a government able to not only guarantee security and a "King's Peace" throughout the whole island - and be able to enter into international obligations with England that guaranteed that no Irish turbulence would spill over into England- either in the forms of perpetrators or victims"

is a good one. This has been debated over there on that Irish Forum for many times and the outcome is still either the same that you´ve experienced or some posters tend to construct an ancient Irish unity that lasted until the English conquered Ireland. Most of the contraversial arguments are between Irish Nationalists and Unionists where the Unionists have the better arguments for they do not incline to give way to romanticized opinions. I´ve asked Irish posters for various times about the lack of an united Irish state (or Kingdom) and the weakness which resulted in that lack which made it easier for the English to conquer Ireland. The security reasons from the point of view of the English are most ignored by the Irish for it doesn´t fit their narrative. Otherwise they would had to admit that these reasons played also a major role for the English to invade and conquer Ireland for the sake of their own safety. If you come up with such things, you get some harsh response on that to tell the least.

Your remarks about the hospitality of the Irish may bear some points worth to be considered. Frankly from my experiences spending holidays in various European countries is, that when you check in into a Hotel you get quite a different service than you stay in a B&B which is exclusively private run. When I was in London three years ago, I stayed in a B&B for the Hotels are very expensive. Besides the fact that the Landlady wasn´t much sympathic from my point of view, she also asked the if all things were well with the room and breakfast. The difference to what I experienced in Ireland is, that I didn´t get involved in conversations beyond the courtsy small talk. Sometimes I feel that they might feel obliged to take care whereas we for ourselves are quite content without much small talk. There´s the point where it starts to get tricky because we won´t offend our hosts.

"But it is not too hard to be pleasant to people who are here today and gone tomorrow.. It's the people you have to live with 24/7 who present the real challenge."

These are wise words and there´s nothing I can say against it. It´s like everywhere, may it be abroad or back home. The difference is just if one emigrates he´s in a different position than among his own kind.

As for the German-French relationship it is to say that (as I told you for various times in the past) there are more reasons to find in the differences of the systems of both countries. The federal system among the German countries was for centuries their strenght but also their weakness because the German King and later Kaiser during the period of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation had less power in compare to the French King in his own realm.

Thomas

Hi Thomas

Thanks for the post.. I think that we have much common ground...There is something of the same right to selectively 'make a new start' and 'set the counter back to zero' among some Irish-people and those of Irish extraction and the Americans.. selective because they like to still carry forward certain parts of the past- the good and evil, Heaven and Hell, ignoring all the inbetween grey areas. When I finally read the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle largely the centuries before the English real involvement in Ireland itself, the Irish were often among the marauding invaders who came to England- often making common cause with Welsh or Viking forces..Under King Edward the Confessor a Norman-warrior bishop was appointed to a see in 'the Welsh Marches' and built the first Norman Castle manned by Norman troops in order to deal with that very special menace.. It did lead to a great crisis with the Godwinson family that brought England to the brink of Civil War. King Edward was forced to get rid of the Normans, and when he died the Godwinson's managed to seize the throne.. But my reading of the AS Chronicle is that the common people of England actually realized that they would have more peace and security with the Normans.

Cass

Hi Cass.

I agree on

"I think that we have much common ground...There is something of the same right to selectively 'make a new start' and 'set the counter back to zero' among some Irish-people and those of Irish extraction and the Americans.. selective because they like to still carry forward certain parts of the past- the good and evil, Heaven and Hell, ignoring all the inbetween grey areas."

I guess that the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is something of your main basic sources on ancient and medieval English history. I´d be interested to learn about the full title and the author of that book.

BTW. A couple of months ago I´ve found some small book "The History of England" by Trevelyan in an antiquarian bookshop. It was published by an German publisher in English language and containes extracted chapters from the whole work. It was interesting to read it for I knew about him just from our conversations and your Towards History Project.

Thomas