h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

You guys who don't think its the greatest civilisation are kidding me right? Where do I start, there are lots of facets to the Romans (and also the Greeks). But this whole Roman's copied the Greeks is a bit of a joke, and its and unfortunate remnant of the embellished philhellenic teachings that existed predominantly in England and Germany above all places from the 17th century onwards. It’s an overly idealistic and unrealistic view of the situation.

Think about this before I say anything else: The reason why we know anything about the Greeks is because of the Romans!....because the Romans did admire classical Greek civilization (not the Greeks that were contemporary with them). They didn’t admire the Carthaginians and the result was obliteration of the Punic race as a political entity. So than the Romans for what you know about the Greeks. Most of what you know about the Greeks was handed down to you in Latinised form.

Views are slowly changing, for example, Marseille is largely thought to have been a Greek settlement. Yet it was originally occupied by the Phoenicians. Better yet, archeologists have recently discovered ETRUSCAN BUILDINGS in MARSEILLE. So was Marseill explicitly Greek? I don’t think so. They mediterranian world was about interacting, not all races copying one race. This only happened when the Romans dominated, but even then the Romans, allowed the others to flourish – BIG tick to the Romans for that.

There are round temples in Sicily that archeologists and historians have always thought to have been inspired by the Greeks, because there were round temples in Greece. There are also native religious practices of Sicily that were thought to be Greek inspired because the “similar” to Greek practices. Now, new studies have shown that it was the other way around. Those temples in Sicily for example, were found to out-date the Greek ones by 3 centuries. So who was influencing who?

The Greeks were hardly original themselves. Their alphabet comes from the Phoenicians. Most of the Mythological figures were borrowed from Mesopotamia. The Greek columns were directly borrowed from Egyptian influences. Hell, they didn’t even know how to build anything in stone until the 6th century BC when Corinthian mercenaries were used in the Egyptian army and then allowed to establish a colony in Egypt. I could go on, but I hope you get the point. The Trireme originated with the Phoenicians. The best civilizations build on ideas from the past – that’s how we improve.

The problem was that the Greeks were the first civilization to write things down, to document history. So they wrote it from their (often mistaken) point of view. This unfortunately has resulted in warped idea of what the ancient world was actually like. The Persians did this sort of thing also and were far more advanced than the Greeks, but unfortunately (thanks in part to lucky victories by Alexander the Great) much of that is lost. Because of this the Greeks were seen as the cultural leaders by the Romans, so when they began writing their own history, they used Greek language and Greek mythological ideals as it was seen as prestigious to have a similar style of history.


The other thing I find interesting is that people seam to forget that the Romans actually influenced their subjects more than they were influenced themselves. They did become Romanized (EVEN THE GREEKS – why do you think the Byzantines (and the Greeks up to the 17th century) called themselves Romaioi (Romans)? – they did not think of themselves as Greek). And the Romans became Hellenized to produce a hybrid civilization – this happened after the original (true) Romans bloodlines died out.

Many things are claimed to be Greek inventions when they were invented by “Greeks” in the Roman period, who also happened to be ROMAN CITIZENS, working under Roman patronage. So lets be fair now shall we.

But there were many Roman inventions (some examples):

- CEMENT - Improved cement someone said? Cement as we know is WAS a Roman invention! Someone at some stage said this was a Carthaginian invention – because there was cement in Carthage. Not so – the Cement dated from Roman times (Carthage was Roman for 600 years).
- The Book as we know it (an invention that was equivalent to the computer).
- The modern calendar.
- many practical inventions such as various water wheels. Most of their inventions were of an engineering nature. There are plenty for you to look up.
- Satire

For sure they did not have prominent philosophers like the Greeks, but they did extend the philosophies, particularly the discipline based ones stoicism and epicurism (which suited early Roman culture more than anything. It is much like scientists today. The famous scientists are Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Fermi, people like that. Today I can’t think of a contempary scientist that is as famous as those and other greats. Yet today, science (and our knowledge) is advancing in leaps and bounds, and we have more scientists than ever. No less talented, just more mainstream. This was the case back then too.

However, did you know that what is considered the Greatest of all ancient philosophic/scientific works is the poem “On the Nature of Things”. It was written by Lucretius, A ROMAN!

Yes art was also perfected by the Romans and taken to a new level. Romans art changed greatly over their history. Imperial Roman styles were adapted from classical Greek styles. Whereas the Greeks had a idealistic styles, the Romans took this and made it more realistic. The closest thing to a photograph. And you are kidding me if the art wasn’t beautiful. Our art today is largely adapted from Italian art, I don’t see the problem with this, its building on past foundations – its how we improve.

Architecture. Greeks had beautiful Egyptian inspired square-ish temples. They (the Romans) utilized the Arch, invented the DOME and self supporting vaulted ceilings and a hole bunch of things like that.

You say the Romans copied the Greeks, yes and no is the answer.
The beautiful thing about the Romans in this regard is that the take ideas from others and make it work in a way that fits with their civilization. It was never a straight copy. If you think about the Greeks and when they first started to come into influential contact with the Romans, there was a lot of social resistance to the influences. Read up on Cato the elder to see what I mean. What ultimately transpired was a Greek influx of cultural features that were adapted to suit Roman styles and taste’s. BUT THEY DID NOT JUST BLANKET COPY. THEY ADAPTED AND MODIFIED.

The Romans were influenced by other Civilsations yes, but the main civilizations tha influenced them were the other Italian cultures. The alphabet comes from the Etruscans, the style of warfare comes from the Samnites,… the name Rome itself is derived from the Etruscan name for the Tiber river (not the Greek word Rhome), gladiatorial combat from the Etruscans, Roman Gods, were originally all taken from Italic cultures.

This was one of the best Roman traits - the ability to adapt. They did it time and time again. When you say they copied you are bringing up, knowingly or not, examples of their adaptive abilities. That’s how they survived so long – 753BC to 1453AD. They experienced many cultural (and genetic makeup) transitions along the way, but the cultural and political force that began in Ancient Rome continued and morphed to survive a very long time. And much of that is the foundation of the western world today.

You can think of it this way. The Greeks may have provided the seeds of Western civilization, but the Romans were the Crucible.

The Romans were the Greatest. They were intelligent. Practical. They were socially advanced for the times seeing that they were welcoming of other cultures under their yolk, with the giving of citizenship, the freedom to practice whatever religion you wanted, rights for slaves beyond those of any other civilization in history (ancient to modern). Their republican government was more democratic than the Greek democracy!
When the conquered it was not their policy annex. And if someone brought it, then the Romans brought it! They often went to war in the defense of others (eg. Greece, Egypt), for no gain to themselves (they only annexed these after being betrayed too many times). They would usually establish client kingdoms rather than absorb territory (eg. Numidia) that’s why the empire did not grow as Alexander’s. Diplomacy first was their policy.

Oh and they did have guys who could have taken out Alexander. The Romans defeated his equivalent in the form of Pyhrrus from Epirus. And the Romans defeated the guy regarded as the greatest general of all time (at least ancient times), Hannibal. And they did this with their citizen armies (against professional armies) before they themselves reached their peak. And Romans faced and defeated the toughest armies of all times – other Roman armies.

That’s all I will say for now. It’s a bit patchy, but I am sure its enough.

PS. The majority of influences we have today come from the Romans above all else. (most prominent being Language, Organizational, Administrative, Legal, Engineering, Public Ammenities, Art, and Medical. I do not want to spell them all out. A bit of research and thinking should highlight these for you. Good luck. If that does not make them the greatest civ (add their military might and relative wealth to that) I don’t know what does.

PPS, The Germanics and the old subjets did try to follow the Roman ways after the fall of the Western Empire, contrary to what someone here has claimed. Part of the reason for the barbarian invasions was because they wanted to be part of the Empire, or at least live as the Romans did.

In Britain, this the Romanization slowly disappered after the buildings and infrastructure started to fall apart as rhe locals did nit have the skills to maintain then...or something like that (Read Simon Shuma's History of Britain).

In Italy for example, Odacor, after he deposed Romulus Augustulus, reinstated the senate and, due to the stability his rule brought, Italy began to prosper again. There are a few extant texts and letters from the period which shows that the people dd not see much difference between the when they were ruled by Odacer or by Romans (or they didn't know the difference). When Belisarius arrived to reconquer the peninsular for the Roman Emporer in Constantinople (Officially New Rome) he found the locals were still wearing Togas etc.