h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Peter - Researcher,

I'm wondering if you are the Peter that Tom Canning wrote to regarding my grandfather, Sjt. Wiliam Leslie Keable, 1066462, 11th Field Regt. RA - died 12th Feb 1944 and buried at CWGC Cemetery Cassino. I am trying to track things down and referred Tom to the fact that in one letter to my grandmother he refers to the fact that her last letter finally tracked him down at the 296th Bty (having first been to the 91st Hospital - Egypt I believe). I received a response from Tom but then noted that he was referring in his message to the 269th (their timeline doesn't tally with the date of my gramps death). I think Tom and I must have got our wires crossed somewhere. Anyway, it appears from "The Tiger Triumphs" that the 11th Field Regt RA were in the 4th Indian Battle Order at Cassino and on Feb 12th elements of the 4th Indian were set to relieve the Americans at Point 593 - Snake's Head Ridge. So is it possible that the 296th Bty was part of the 11th Field Regt? And...as if that wasn't enough help can I bug you further when I hear back from Glasgow!!??

Warm regards,

Craig Attridge

Hi Craig Yes, I'm the very same Peter :-D I think Tom is about to message you on the 11th Field Regiment RA. Interim, 269 Battery was never part of the 11th Field Regiment. If Tom appears to have got his wires crossed the fault his mine. I initially gave him the the wrong timetable for 269 Battery - but aside from that, 269 proved to be a red herring. Tom now has all the details (dates and movement) of the 11th Regiment RA and from his own knowledge should be able to flesh out the bare date bones. I have just located where you have been discussing this http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/F125236?thread=352734&skip=20&show=20 and read it all with some amusement. Oracle indeed :) Anyway, the 11th Field Regiment with the 4th Indian Infantry Division fits in with the date of the sad loss of your grandfather. I shouldn't worry too much as to what battery he was in. Artillery terms are quite misleading. Particularly the term 'regiment' as used by the RA. The entire caboodle, hundreds af RA regiments, is known as The Royal Regiment of Artillery. As to individual units, artillery regiments, these are the equivalent of infantry regimental battalions. Usually an RA regiment has three batteries (batteries of guns), the equivalent of infantry companies, and the batteries are sub-divided into three 'troops', the equivalent of infantry platoons in manpower. So I shouldn't worry too much as to which battery he was in, so long as you know which regiment. Peter

Thanks Peter! Apparently Tom is having something of a spat with Auntie Beeb currently!? He is having to sign in three or more times and then getting bumped and per Tom "wasted" an hour writing to me all about the 11th only to lose it all! He has signed off in disgust apparently but has promised to return!

Oh, as I said to Tom in the last message the crossed wires seem to be between the 269th Bty and the 296th Bty. My grandfather was with the latter! He wrote in a letter to my grandmother 'I had a letter from you today darling dated 27th June, our day (this was their 7th wedding anniversary) (his letter was dated 2nd September 1943) ) which was addressed to 91st hospital and they sent it on to the 296th Bty, so it has had a good trip round before I finally got it' -this was from his address at C/O O.C. Troops, El Arish.M.E.F.

Out of interest, and I note what you say about the RA, how are you (personally) able to pin down individual batteries?

Thank you so much once again.

Warm regards,

Craig

Craig

There is no evidence in the letter you quote that your grandfather was in 296th Battery. In fact it seems to me that he is saying quite the contrary:

He is saying that the letter "was addressed to 91st hospital and they sent it on to the 296th Bty, so it has had a good trip round before I finally got it". Clearly he had left the hospital and they had forwarded the letter to the wrong unit, otherwise he would have said "it was address to the hospital and they forwarded it to me". What he is really saying is that the letter had been all round the houses before he received it. I suspect that the hospital sent the letter to the central postal point from where it was wrongly forwarded to 68th Field Regiment instead of 11th Field Regiment; they would have returned it to the Army PO from where it was finally sent to 11th Field Regiment. Anyway, that's my reading of it.

Peter.

Hi Craig
Thought I'd add a few words to confirm what Peter had to say about Batterys not being important. If you take my own unit as an example. The unit itself was the 49th Light Anti Aircraft Regiment, or 49th LAA, as it was generally known.
There were 3 Batterys, namely:
84,90 and 280. It was not unusual for servicemen to be transferred at the drop of a hat from one battery to another and therefore mail would be sorted at RHQ (Regimental Headquarters) without any problems.
If Peter and Tom can't help you, I don't know who can .
Good luck in your research
Ron

Peter/Ron/Tom,

Once again thank you all for your kind assistance!

And before you think I am still obsessed by the battery thing...I'm not...well not really! All I was trying to point out was that when Peter/Tom referred to the 68th Field Regt it was in reference, as I understood it, to the 269 Bty whereas the letter from my grandfather refers to the 296 Bty and my question is was the 296 Bty (not the 269 which I understand was with the 68th) with the 11th Field Regt?

After this I'll leave it alone!! Honestly!!

I am currently ploughing through all your contributions to this site Ron and just wanted to thank all three of you for your considerable assistance I don't think I will ever know what it was like to walk in my grandfathers boots (sorry Tom) but at least if I knew where they'd been I would feel like I've done what I can to keep his memory alive!

Warm regards,

Craig

Andy

296th Battery wasn't a field battery; it was an HAA (Heavy Anti-Aircraft) battery with the 66th (Leeds Rifles) HAA Regiment RA (184th, 185th, and 296 Btys). But they went to India in 1942.

The following is from an email I sent Tom.

The 11th Field Regiment RA were Divisional troops (4th Indian Infantry Div.) in XXX Corps. Armament was sixteen 25 pdrs. The 11th Field Regiment RA's batteries were the 78th, 83rd, 84th, and 85th.

Here are the full movements of the 11th Regiment RA in WW2 (dates in the British style day.month.year):

3.9.39: The Regiment was stationed in Meirut (India). Converted to two batteries: 78/84 and 83/85.
2.8.41: Left India with 8th Indian Infantry Division.
9.8.41: Arrived in Iraq.
23.6.42: Arrived in Egypt.
1.7.42: Under command of 1st Armoured Division.
15.7.42: Came under command of 5th Indian Infantry Division.
8.9.42: Came under command of 4th Indian Infantry Division.
31.1.43: Located in Tobruk, Lybia.
Feb '43 (day uncertain): On the move towards Tripoli.
June '43: Located in Tripoli area, Lybia.
7.7.43: Arrived in the Delta, Egypt.
14.10.43: Left Egypt.
18.10.43: Arrived in Syria.
7.11.43: Returned to Egypt.
3.12.43: Embarked at Port Said for Italy with 4th Indian Infantry Division.
9.12.43: Arrived in Taranto.
12.7.43: 187 Battery joined regiment.
31.1.44: Located at Lanciano (on the Adriatic coast, east of Rome).
30.11.44: Moved to Greece with Division. No further change.

Peter

Andy I meant Craig. Sorry!

Given the balance of the message I will obviously forgive you! Especially as I was so intent on the body of your message that I didn't even notice that you'd called me Andy and probably wouldn't have if you hadn't pointed it out!

I'm now going to have to wait on Glasgow to fill in the gaps I guess as I know Gramps was at Dunkirk and therefore clearly not in India at the outbreak of the war. I'm also intrigued by the fact that the 11th were at Lanciano on 31.1.44 but apparently at Cassino by at least 12.2.44

Anyway, the beat goes on as they say. Thank you so much.

Craig

Craig

In turn, I'm intrigued by your "I'm also intrigued by the fact that the 11th were at Lanciano on 31.1.44 but apparently at Cassino by at least 12.2.44"

The road distance from Lanciano to Cassino is 173 Km (107 miles), these days, a car journey of just over 2 hours. Call it eight to ten hours for a battery on the move in 1944, ample time to get there in twelve days. The town of Cassino is 140 Km (87 miles) southeast of Rome, close to the River Rapido. The unusual flooding of the Rapido in 1944, which curtailed the deployment of tanks and other motorised equipment at Cassino, did not happen until the spring.

Peter

Peter,

Please excuse my ignorance!

Craig

Okay gentleman we have found two Permanent Pass cards amongst gramps thing one for January 1935 showing him with 55th Field Battery, Royal Artillery and the second dated 6th January 1939 showing him in 32nd Field Battery, Royal Artillery.

Any ideas on regiments/locations?

Incidentally Tom (Canning - kind of goes without saying I guess) was indicating that it took his unit ten days to get from Lucero to Campobasso which appears to be an even shorter journey than Lanciano to Cassino over a main road which lacks the mountains in between. That having been said I know Tom's was an amoured unit!

Anyway, anything on the 55th and the 32nd would be greatly appreciated.

Warm regards,

Craig

Craig

I was referring to a journey from EAST to WEST across Italy behind the front line, not an advance pushing back the Germans from south to north.

The Gothic line stretched diagonally across Italy, not horizontally. As I said, on 31 January 1944 the 11th were at Lanciano, on the Adriatic coast, east of Rome. Although I have no evidence to show that they were at Cassino, there is nothing inconsistent with a battery being at Lanciano one day and at Cassino twelve days later.

The history of the 55 Field (The Residency) Battery is here http://www.webspawner.com/users/mick759/

There was no 32 field battery in WW2. It was an LAA battery, formed in September 1938, of the 11th (City of London Yeomanry) Light Anti-Aircraft Brigade, RA. Some details here: http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/volmil-london/vcav/LonRR.htm

Regards,

Peter

Craig

After hours of hunting I have finally found confirmation of what I had worked out, that 4th Indian Infantry Division, of which 11th Field Regiment RA were divisional troops, were indeed moved from Lanciano to the Cassino sector.

Ken Ford, a respected military historian, explains this in his booklet "Cassino 1944 - Breaking the Gustav Line" (Osprey Publishing, 2004).

General Alexander took the decision to bring new divisions, right on the other side of Italy over the Apennines, across to the Fifth Army front late in January 1944. Ford says that "He moved 2nd New Zealand Division, 4th Indian Division and British 78th Division across the Apennines and assigned them to Clark's Fifth Army. The first two of these divisions arrived in late January and early February ... . The 78th Division did not arrive in the area until 17 February. These units were grouped together into a new corps, designated II New Zealand Corps, which was placed under the command of LtGen Bernard Freyberg VC... ." Alexander was able to move over these three divisions because the front had become static on the Adriatic coast. It was this new corps, the II New Zealand Corps which was the major component in the second battle for Montecassino starting on 15 February, which unfortunately began with the destruction of the Monastery - 4th Indian Division and 2nd New Zealand Division then attacked both the town and the Monastery ruins.

Peter

32 Bty was part of the 22nd Fld Regt according to http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Hi Craig

Tom was quite right, there was a 269 Field Battery, but not a 296 Field Battery. The 269th (along with 271 and 438 Batteries) was in the 68 Field Regiment. They arrived in Italy, from Egypt, on 24 September 1944.

The 296th was a Heavy Ack-Ack Battery. Along with 184th and 185th Btys, they formed the 66 (Leeds Rifles) HAA Regiment RA. Moreover, they were in India from May 1942 to April 1945.

Regards,

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for that. I've got another one for you!?! According to his service records my grandfather was posted to the following RA unit on 25th August 1939 "512/7 Fd Mil Bty" any ideas?

He was only with the unit until 13th March 1940 so a little over six and a half months before being posted to the 53rd Fd Regt and during his time with "512/7 Fd Mil Bty" was promoted to "W/Sgt"? Any ideas as to the "W"?

Prior to that he was a "P/L/Sgt"? Help! and prior to that a "Bdr" (Bombardier?), a "P/L/BR", and a "W/L/BR"?!?

Also there is no indication of which Bty. he was with when he joined the 53rd Fd Regt. Any ideas why that might be? I'm wondering whether with the outbreak of war the people in the records office just couldn't keep up because there are no entrys in his service record for the period from 17th June 1940 when he rejioned the 53rd after being evacuated from Dunkirk until his death on 12th February 1944 with the 11th Fld Regt. It gives no indication of when he left the 53rd or joined the 11th?

All help gratefully received.

Warm regards,

Craig

Also any idea whether I could get his hospital records?! And if so how?! Only he was wounded in action on 11/9/42 and hospitalised in Egypt between that date and 21/1/43? I just thought these might give an indication of units and help fill in the gap in his service records!?!?

All for now...I think.

Craig