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ANODYNE

Post 1

Snailrind

I once saw a graffito which said, "it's at times like these when the world is falling around your ears that you realise the benefits of scaffolding."

I had thought that nothing could possibly compare with last November's car crash deaths. I'd thought that subsequent disasters would pale in comparison to the deaths of those kids. Turns out I was wrong. I keep finding myself in states of shock and terror over events which I cannot prevent from happening even when I can see them coming a mile off. I fear for the lives of those I love the most. I am overloaded with secrets, and helpless in the face of them.

Who to turn to? There is nobody. Where to find the strength? Only inside myself. And today, committed atheist though I am, I found myself turning to religion. I found myself thinking about Guru Maharaji, the boy-man-god I was brought up to revere, and to whom I used to pray whenever things got bad. Like the Dalai Lama, Maharaji is known for his unconquerable optimism and his unconditional love for every living thing. Though I now know this reputation to be a sham, today I drew comfort from the mental image of his smiling face, which I have always imagined to be emitting a soft glow of golden light.

http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/indiangall.htm

And I drew comfort from this song by The Incredible String Band (extracts below), which I believe was written about him:

You get brighter every day
And every time I see you
Scattered brightness in your way
And you taught me how to love you

I know you belong to everybody but you can't deny that I'm you

Krishna colours on the wall
You taught me how to love you
Krishna colours on the wall
And you taught me how to love you

I know you belong to everybody but you can't deny that I'm you

O wondrous light
Light, light, lighter
You give all your brightness away
And it only makes you brighter.


I've tried to turn my mother away from all this false worship, thinking that her beliefs were making her vulnerable to abuse by charismatic people. They are--but now I see that it's all she's got. It's all she's got.


ANODYNE

Post 2

SEF

Seems like one of those situations where you'd like to clean up the rot or rust but realise that it has gone so far that the corrupt shell or veneer is all that's holding up the now hollow structure. In Dr.Who terms it's Omega: the original person has decayed because of all the anti-matter exposure, leaving just the armour as a semblance of a person who can no longer be restored.


ANODYNE

Post 3

Snailrind

If it were only that simple. If it were only one situation, one person. If the problems were only psychological ones.

Anyway, things are looking up today. The sun is shining and we have only had one small disaster so far.smiley - silly I think it'll turn out okay.


ANODYNE

Post 4

Snailrind

"only psychological"

That's not to trivialise people whose primary problems are psychological. I just mean that I don't want any more people to die, thank you very much.

Kind of an impossible desire really, what with death being as inevitable as taxes.smiley - laugh

It's funny... for some time now I've felt as though there's this little journalist sitting at the back of my mind with a little recording device round its neck; and whatever happens, there it is taking it all in and telling me, "this is what it's like to be alive. You, right now, are in a position to experience it. Let's live to see how the world ends. Let's tap every experience to its limit. Let's see what the human frame can take. What is it like when this, when that? Let's see."


ANODYNE

Post 5

SEF

I think you've just confessed to witch status then by having "third thoughts" in Terry Pratchett terms, like me. Of course I think that's "normal" though and it's odder for there to be so many (largely) unthinking people around. Or in Marvin terms: how do they live in anything so small.


ANODYNE

Post 6

Snailrind

Which Pratchett was that in?


ANODYNE

Post 7

SEF

"A Hat Full of Sky" but also (at least hinted at) in "The Wee Free Men".


ANODYNE

Post 8

Snailrind

Hmm. Haven't read either of those. I had a real aversion to Pratchett for years after reading Equal Rites; I've since discovered that he's actually a very good writer a lot of the time, but I still haven't read more than a handful of his novels. I enjoyed Thief of Time a lot. And Lords and Ladies was truly brilliant.


ANODYNE

Post 9

Researcher U1025853

Hi Snailrind, I hope things start to clear for you. Faith is a strange one, its good to be strong, but sometimes we need a moment to be weak and take a rest. I think its good to recognise that need, without having to indulge it with a fully fledged religion. Not sure i am coming across as I mean, I hope you get that.

My family are agnostic/atheist, so I don't have to see in them what you have seen in yours. That sounds difficult.

I loved The Thief of Time, those zen mountains sounded brilliant!smiley - magic


ANODYNE

Post 10

Snailrind

I think I know what you're getting at, Kaz.smiley - smiley

I really liked Wen the Eternally Surprised, and Clodpool.smiley - laugh

What d'you think of my Guru? He was a cute kid, wasn't he!


ANODYNE

Post 11

Researcher U1025853

I have seen pictures of him before actually. I find it fascinating how people follow gurus so much. I like to take advice but I still want to live my own life. I knew a lot of people who followed Sai Baba.smiley - erm


ANODYNE

Post 12

Snailrind

I've just had a look at some of Sai Baba's stuff via Google. I hadn't heard of him. Was he well-meaning or after people's money? I've lost some friends to the Life Foundation, which I consider to be a particularly nasty cult.

Maharaji seems to be well-meaning. In the Seventies and early Eighties, when he was the Next Big Thing, he fulfilled his deity-type role with aplomb, having been brought up specially to do it. He wore the whole kaboodle--crown, robes, flowers; we sang the equivalent of hymns to him; we kissed his feet; he blessed people and blew magic air into their ears; he accepted hugely expensive presents from his followers, like cars and houses and playgrounds for his children and so on. It was great. And we'd all evangelise like hell. Then it all started falling apart. As I recall, he had some kind of huge row with his family, and ran away. Then he stopped wearing the robes. He divorced his wife. The songs and the presents and the foot-kissing and all that stopped. I last saw him in the late Nineties; he came onstage and gave what amounted to a talk on positive thinking and coping with life. He said several times that he's not a religion, he's just a person with a message. But his job is not the sort of thing one can just walk away from. His followers are extremely ardent. There is something extraordinarily compelling about someone who always smiles and never says anything judgemental. It just feels good to be around them. Poor guy.


ANODYNE

Post 13

Researcher U1025853

Sai baba is a misogynist who likes to fill young men with his holiness. Some of his donators know what he does and says he is so holy that it doesn't to them. I bought my shop off 2 devotees and lots their customers came into my shop looking for his stuff. I refused to sell it and then when they heard the accusations they came in crying about how could anyone be so mean. They all assumed I was a devotee as well.smiley - erm

The only good thing about him was his incense Nag Champa, he does the best, shame his name and picture are on the box.


ANODYNE

Post 14

Snailrind

The abuse some people will put up with in the name of devotion.smiley - sadface I guess they must be getting something out of it, though. Like I said above, sometimes your religion is the only thing you've got.

I've been thinking about this thing you said: "I find it fascinating how people follow gurus so much. I like to take advice but I still want to live my own life."

Last night I remembered how I used to view it: I thought, why do so many people believe in invisible gods whose instructions nobody can agree upon? Here is a deity you can see, hear and touch; you can ask him questions and everyone can hear his replies. I thought, this deity is real; other deities are imaginary.

Now I wonder what the Premies will do when he dies. He's supposed to have raised his son to be the next 'Satguru' (messiah), but he hasn't done this. Good on him.

The lifestyle wasn't particularly difficult: everyone was vegetarian in respect for the natural world and, heavens, the food was delicious; everyone had a 'Darshan Room' for daily meditation (like a Pagan's magical space for rituals, it was always peaceful and full of symbolic items and good vibrations); once a week, people would gather at an ashram and take turns to talk happily about their Maharaji-related experiences. A lot of us started out living in communes, where people would fall out and sleep with each other's spouses and separate into cliques, but it was fun for us kids, who had special status, owing to the fact that everyone was trying to find their 'Inner Child'.


ANODYNE

Post 15

SEF

"sometimes your religion is the only thing you've got"

That rather sad state of affairs is usually induced/promoted by other religious people though. While they claim to be helping someone, they are actually cutting them off (from other more genuine sources of help) and helping themselves - feeding off their victims (emotionally and financially). Sometimes the "guru" or spirit-child is merely a pawn but sometimes they are a willing/originating participant in the abuse. smiley - cross

NB I misread "devotion" briefly (in view of other conversations and a recently received picture smiley - winkeye). smiley - online2long Certain primates need to learn that they don't need to put up with that sort of abuse in the name of evolution - a far superior concept with the added bonus of being observably correct.

"fascinating how people follow gurus so much"

A lot of people do seem to be very (emotionally/morally) dependent personalities - caught mentally in a primitive state of childhood without having graduated to adult independence and responsibility. Puberty seems to be mostly physical despite the misleading influence of hormones on behaviour. It doesn't magically instil higher thought processes.

"Here is a deity you can see, hear and touch"

The Egyptians had those. It looks as though most religions, as they developed, pushed the pretence of a deity on earth into the realm of the purely spiritual to avoid the rather obvious fallibility of anything/anyone real and testable. Increasingly as people explored and experimented more, the only way for the religious to avoid being seen to be ridiculous/frauds by even some of the most gullible potential marks was to avoid the deity being accountable at all. Not seen or heard (though some still make those claims). Not to be tested. Not to be judged. That way they got to keep their imaginary friend(s) and the profitable con-trick.

"everyone was vegetarian in respect for the natural world"

Hmph! Just wait for the vegetable revolution. Not only will the sprouts be revolting but the carrots will be the orange-men with mini-onions as minions and those fungi just won't be fun guys to have around any more. smiley - weirdsmiley - biggrin

"everyone was trying to find their 'Inner Child'"

Probably the wrong aspects of it: ie not the intrinsic inquisitiveness and honesty, which are often later stifled and corrupted respectively, but the immature dependence and lack of informed personal responsibility. smiley - erm


ANODYNE

Post 16

Researcher U1025853

It was interesting Snailrind to read that you thought of your guru as a physical diety. The lifestyle sounds mostly positive and quite nice really!


ANODYNE

Post 17

Snailrind

"That rather sad state of affairs is usually induced/promoted by other religious people though."

Yes, I do agree. But the thing that has struck me recently is the "usually". Lately I've needed to resolve some matters which I can't even tell Gothly about. These matters require the kind of courage I'm struggling to find in myself; I'm just so tired. So I yearn for someone to hold my hand and help me do it. Jesus seems to be that helping hand for many people. And thinking about Maharaji seems to lend me that extra bit of oomph. As for my mother, she's hardly going to change into an atheist now and, considering what's been happening in *her* life this month, I'm beginning to think it's just as well.

"A lot of people do seem to be very (emotionally/morally) dependent personalities"

Yup.

Interesting stuff about the Egyptians. I quite like the idea of sun worship, as the sun is visible and tangible, and brings life and deals death and heals and harms and cannot be directly looked at by human eyes. Very god-like.

"Hmph! Just wait for the vegetable revolution."

I know, I know.smiley - biggrin But must you really inflict such terrible puns upon us?

"Probably the wrong aspects of it: ie not the intrinsic inquisitiveness and honesty, which are often later stifled and corrupted respectively, but the immature dependence and lack of informed personal responsibility."

Purity and innocence and all that, they were after. We were allowed to run pretty wild in order to maintain ours. Sheesh, if they'd known half the stuff we got up to....

Kaz, yes, the lifestyle was wonderful, actually. The abuse from outsiders for being weird hippie freaks was less wonderful.


ANODYNE

Post 18

SEF

"she's hardly going to change into an atheist now"

I agree it's improbable. It requires more rationality than most people are able or willing to muster. It's also unnecessary unless she is committing or becoming a victim of crimes because of her religious beliefs. Even then, if those beliefs are harmful it may be easier to wean her onto a more harmless form of religion than off it altogether. Something like Unitarianism (though Hare Krishna may be closer to your mother's current orientation).

"The abuse from outsiders for being weird hippie freaks was less wonderful."

Are you sure some of it wasn't for the running pretty wild and that half of the stuff you got up to... smiley - bigeyes Although I agree that a lot of them would just automatically be prejudiced against an alternative life-style rather than having any genuine complaint. smiley - erm I'm generally pro-hippie ... (but I'm not currently wearing my token flower smiley - winkeye)


ANODYNE

Post 19

Snailrind

I'm such a pratt sometimes. I've probably got PMT. It's not a divine helping hand I need, it's a kick up the arse.

*BOOT!*

That's better.

smiley - smiley


ANODYNE

Post 20

SEF

Post Maharaji Thinking smiley - winkeye


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