h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ok - moral dilemma time:

I was at the dentist this morning and chatting about good places to go shopping with the hygienist and her assistant when the assistant said she didn't like the town I live in because the Asians drive so aggressively.

I was completely astonished by the remark. I should have said that my husband is asian, but I'm crap at lying.

What I said was 'well the white lads do it too' and told her about some bad driving by whites.

So - should I drop a note through to the surgery, and if I do, what should it say?

Ben

Hm. If you're geninely disgusted, tell them so.

I tend to work with challenging the person in some way at the time (i.e. 'well, is anyone else really so bad? When you think about it?') is usually enough.

Often times at work I have to just ignore it because I've had everything from screaming arguments to simply being laughed at via an almsot intelligent conversation or two challenging ridiculous statements and outrageous claims about different 'types' of people... I've not managed to change anyone's mind so far and it's actually not worth me wasting my time and my breath.

I still cant help myself sometimes though. like a theory I heard that asian shopkeepers are ripping people off by having a minimum charge on card transactions. Pointing out that these people are running small businesses and have to pay to have a card machine which makes small transactions cost them more than they make in the sale is, apparently, frowned upon. (logic and facts often get that reception around here...)

But then what do you expect from a bunch of intimidating, rip-off merchant whiter than white boys who read publications like Nuts and The Sun and seem to think the opinions they gather therein are valid and dont need any contextual thought, emotional connection or research.

They also think all immigrants are 'grabbing scum' and that artists are just drop-outs who have found a way to rip off the rich and famous and dont really class as people.

Once in a while I manage to gather enough energy to actually discuss it all again. like one lad who was rather proud of the fact that he'd voted BNP. His argument? 'but they are right, there's not enough room here'.

We erm... discussed it and he went away with his tail between his legs because I basically accused him of jumping on bandwagons he had no idea about and suggested he do a little bit of research before he goes around causing trouble beyond anything he has a concept for. Small boys with no clue + big votes with far-reaching consequences. He didn't realise it's not a bloody game. >

What are you hoping for exactly?
You already did all that was required by pointing out that her premise that it's Asian driving that's problematic was baseless.

If I was Ben, I would hope that the organisation addresses the underlying racist behaviour in their staff, by either re-educationg them or simply by telling them that what ever opinions they hold privately in this regard, they should not consider them topics of discussions with customers.

One can *hope* that the woman in question went home, thought hard about her position and decided to become more open minded, but I find that such assumptions are often incorrect.

Well, I don't expect to go to the dentist Jack and be asked to collude in other people's racism. What I would hope my dentist would do would be to recommend to her (or all his staff generically) that they are careful about the opinions they express in front of the patents, which should suggest that such opinions are not acceptable to everyone. If he were to provide his staff with training in the subject of prejudice, stereotyping and discrimination that would be good, but it is not up to me to ask him to do that.

Robyn, I am fortunate in that I work in a place where discrimination is explicitly unacceptable, where we have leaflets and online training about it (which I was asked to test, ironically), and where managers are required to challenge discrimination and everyone is able to. I have had more difficulty with family members lazily stereotyping Asians and blacks than I have had at work.

I think what disgusts me is not that they hold these opinions, disgusting though they are. What gets to me is that they expect me to collude with them. That's what makes me feel besmirched.

Chances are, those opinions are expressed *to* them which causes them to feel they should spread them. I find it quite strange how easily people pass on attitudes not necessarily their own.

Mrs Zen

How exactly did she say it? Matter of factly or with malice?



And what did she say back?

The area where you live IS 'full' of asians - maybe she notices them more. But if she isn't saying send 'em all back home then is it 'really that bad'? It was an off hand remark it doesn't automatically mean shes a NP member of KKK or sneers and spits at asians in the street.



No, just let it go. Write a letter to the government and tell them tackling anti-social behaviour will only work if they give kids in communities something to occupy themselves. It might do more good.

She may or may not be racist. I have no way of knowing, and I never will know. What she expressed was stereotyping with a slice of nostalgia: she had been born and raised in a nice town and it isn't so nice any more.

She didn't say much in response to what I said, but I was leaving anyway because the treatment had been finished and I'd got my bag and paperwork.

The long and the short is that I felt very uncomfortable with the conversation, and I really do think that stereotyping is a gateway attitude.

Ah, "gateway" fallacy. Pot is not a gateway drug to heroin. Porn is not a gateway to homosexuality. Your "gateway" is just as sloppy and lacking substance of thought as her "coloured" thinking and the way to deal with it is to call it out for the foolishness it is.

I disagree with you jack... Yes, with drugs perhaps, and homosexuality (because that's not caused, it just IS). But not with attitudes. Attitudes change, grow, mutate and the more something is seen as acceptable, the more it can tend to become the way a group of people think.

Unfortunately, there are some driving styles that you could easily attribute to certain ethnic groups, same as there's some attitude I only ever get on the street from certain ethnic groups.

I have the ability of thought to remind myself that there's plenty of negative stuff going on everywhere from lots of different people. Some people dont think that far, especially if their drifting in that direction is never challenged.

Equally, some somalian men need to stop propositioning every western girl they see on her own on the street to the point where the women feel threatened. I dont assume it's all somalian men, I dont assume that they are genuinely dangerous. Some people would. That's the attitude slide through slack thought that can happen.

Robyn, I agree with you here but I would add that attitudes where racism are concerned have a direction and it's not a good one. Our natural tendencies are to see ourselves and others as belonging to separate groups with, of course, ours as the superior one. The struggle against racist feelings is an uphill battle, something that has to be learned and the lesson requires daily maintenance.

I've tried every way of dealing with yobs and treating them as yobs definitely doesn't work. Because after all they're not stupid or evil, they're just mistaken. When someone tells me a racist joke I go 'I don't get it' then wait for them to try to explain it.

Try to stay unemotional but get them to think about what they just said because they plainly didn't think about it before they said it.

Robyn, Tumsup...

Where is the causal relationship?

Stereotyping exist because it is useful. Everybody uses stereotypes to build a map of reality.
Just because something is a stereotype doesn't negate that it can have a basis in fact.
Accepting one stereotype is not causal of accepting all stereotypes. Nor causal of trading up to out and out bigotry or unfair discrimination.
The origins of that are more complex, just as with drug use or sexual activity.

On free speech:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8284509.stm

Gif

>> Your "gateway" is just as sloppy and lacking substance of thought as her "coloured" thinking and the way to deal with it is to call it out for the foolishness it is.

I want to think about that Jack. Personally, I think that stereotyping IS racist, or sexist, or whatever it might be, and that it is a term introduced by members of the majority to make their bigotry more acceptable.

But that's men for you.

"Porn is not a gateway to homosexuality."

But didn't you know, All porn is gay porn!

"But all pornography is homosexual pornography because all pornography turns your sexual drive inwards. And that in fact is what it does. I know couples now who are struggling with the husband’s addiction to pornography. It’s a terrible thing, and that is what happened to him. You know, if it doesn’t turn you homosexual, it at least renders you less capable of loving your wife."

Michael Schwartz, clearly a paragon of logic.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/20/14758

TRiG.

"If he were to provide his staff with training in the subject of prejudice, stereotyping and discrimination that would be good, but it is not up to me to ask him to do that."

Diversity training is going to be ignored or laughed at in the best case, and is quite likely to turn people in the wrong direction. Do you like being spoon-fed morals by authority figures?

It's about permissions though, Bouncy, isn't it.

If it is permissible to make dirty jokes, to stereotype based on race and gender, and to speculate in negative terms about peoples' sexual orientation, then there is a real risk that some or all of these things will become part of the common currency in a workplace.

By contrast, if it is stated clearly that these things are not permissible, and if that lack of permission is backed up by training, policies and - above all - diversity, then no matter what people think they will not express prejudice in the workplace.

This whole permissions thing then leads us on to societal norms.

Have you *seen* any sitcoms from the 1970s? The casual pointless racism makes them unbroadcastable now and the sexism is astonishing too.