h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

BTW, yes Jehovahs Witnesses are incredibly polite. I happened to be at my Ministers house when two Witnesses called. He invited them in and I enjoyed watching about three hours of spirited, but friendly debate.

I'm not entierly certain what you're saying here, SWL. Could you try again? Because it doesn't make sense to me.

Either God exists or he doesn't. (For any given single definition of the word 'God'.)

Either there is life after death or there isn't.

Either the Bible teaches that God is a Trinity or it doesn't.

Either God has revealed information about himself to humanity or he hasn't.

I don't see where your personal truth comes into this at all.

Sorry.

TRiG.

Three hours?

Came across this while looking for something else. Would anyone here appreciate some light relief?

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29617

1) I'm open-minded either way
2) I agree - not necessarily connected with religion though.
3) The Bible may teach, but it is written by men and used by men for political purposes. I won't find spiritual guidance in a Political Manifesto.
4) Not conclusively in my mind, no.

God did not write the Bible. Or the Torah. Or the Koran. Or the Book of Mormon. They were written by men.

Just read an interesting quote from Thomas Jefferson, a man more eloquent than I ...

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Hm. But, one way or the other, there are questions which have right answers and wrong answers. If you are convinced that you have found the right answers (whatever they may be) would you not consider sharing them with others?

Or, at least, why would you object to other people doing so?

TRiG.

"God is different things to different people. Everyone's truth is personal to themselves."

Different people have different conceptions of what God is. A maximum of one of these conceptions is correct. (Unless you're playing with different definitions of the word 'god', which is possible. If that needs clarification I'll do it some time when I'm awake.)

As for the "Everyon's truth is personal to themselves" bit, I'm afraid I really don't know what you're saying.

TRiG.

TRIG:

< Either God exists or he doesn't.

Either there is life after death or there isn't.

SWL:



Wow, both of you are *really* confident in your own beliefs! TRIG: maybe God exists only for those who believe in Her? Maybe only *some* people live on after death? SWL: Is a political manifesto incapable of bearing spiritual guidance? Could God not have dictated Her Holy Books to human 'secretaries'?

TRIG:

I wonder if one interpretation could be that what is Truth for you is unconvincing to someone else? [And vice versa, of course.]

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Hi P-C.

"What is Truth for you is unconvincing to someone else."

Of course. All the time. That's why intellegent people believe different things. That doesn't affect the validity of my earlier remark, "there are questions which have right answers and wrong answers."



"Maybe only *some* people live on after death?"

That is one possibility. One of many. If that is true, people who teach that there is no life after death are wrong, as are those who teach that all people live after death.

I'm not really sure what the debate is here. I said, "If you have found the truth, if you know what is God's purpose for the world, if you know how to be happy, if you know who we are, where we come from, and where we're going, and you keep it to yourself, you must really be a selfish brat!" In other words, if you know what the truth is, you are morally compelled to share it. The only answer I've had to that is a suggestion that truth doesn't exist, an argument I've never been able to comprehend. (At least, I think that that's what you and SWL are saying, but I'm not really sure.)



"Maybe God exists only for those who believe in Her?"

Depends on your definition of the word 'god', of course. If you're talking about God as the person who made the world, then either he exists or he doesn't. As simple as that.

There are many definitons. Pick one, define it well, and then the question "Does God exist?" has one definite answer. (Whether humans can supply that answer definitively is almost a completely seperate question.)

TRiG.

Suppose a person thinks they have the truth and ought to share it, they may think they have something that sets it apart as more likely to be true, but you know what, there are and have been a lot of different peddlers of truth under the sun, most people are either set on one way or not all that convinced by any of them ('they might all be part of the truth' style nonsense appears to be on the way out thankfully). Its been fairly well established, then, that most people don't react well to being preached to by someone they don't know.

So don't do it. If someone wants your truth then they'll come to you. And stop making me abuse the word 'truth' .

TRIG:



Bouncy:

Hmmm. I can't disagree with TRIG, but I can see your point too, Bouncy. Surely the answer is that you *are* morally obliged to share the truth you have found, but a courteous indication that your audience don't wish to share what you have to offer should be your immediate cue to stop. Courtesy seems to solve this 'problem', yes?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

I hate advertising, particularly intrusive advertising. Someone coming to my door on missionary duty is unacceptable, in the same way that trying to sell double glazing pushing leaflets through my letterbox or making telemarketting calls to my phone is.

hi TRiG,

* Either God exists or he doesn't. (For any given single definition of the word 'God'.)

There are many definitions of what 'god' means. And for some this concept doesn't exist at all.

* Either there is life after death or there isn't.

In either case there is no evidence to support either belief.

* Either the Bible teaches that God is a Trinity or it doesn't.

This refers to one specific religion - I've always thought your bible taught that your god was part of a trinity. But for example, the Qur'an has no trinity thing going on even though Muslims apparently believe in the same God.

* Either God has revealed information about himself to humanity or he hasn't.

Again, how do we distinguish between real and false 'information'?

* I don't see where your personal truth comes into this at all.

So where does yours come into it? Other than you believe a certain thing to be true that many people happen to disagree with? Without evidence, how can you judge other personal truths against your own?

Do you believe your personal truth is more real than other people's? If so, why?

az

"* Either there is life after death or there isn't."

"In either case there is no evidence to support either belief."

I would offer up this: there are many more ways to be dead than there are to be alive.

Hi azaher,

I've actually said very little (in this conversation) about my beliefs. All I'm saying is that there is an objective reality out there, and that I don't understand this notion of "personal truth". We may have different understandings of what the truth actually is. Indeed, we do have different understandings. What does that tell us? That most of us, possibly all of us, are wrong.

If you are convinced that your understanding is correct, and that it is of benefit to know that, you should share it with others, whatever Bouncy says about advertising.



Incidentally,

The Jews don't (and never did) believe in any form of Trinity (I've seen this disputed once on a wacky website).

The Koran specifically argues against the Trinity, and says that that false belief is the reason why God rejected the Christians and started again with Mohammed. (Or, at least, so I've been told. I'll probably get around to reading it one day.)

And the Bible doesn't mention the Trinity at all. Ever. Not once. Neither in the Hebrew section (the Jewish scriptures) nor in the Greek section (the Christian scriptures). So why so many people believe it I know not. It's a mystery to me.

But that is a completely seperate issue.

TRiG.