h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I just looked at a program tonight that was broadcasted by the BBC-2 (not their own production) that was called; "Spartans at the gates of fire".
It was about the war of the Spartans (a city-state in ancient Greece) and the great Persian army in 480 before Christ, at Thermopylay (in northern Greece). The Persians in those days were a superpower and the number of Spartans were very small compared to them.

It struck me from the beginning that the way the Spartans were described was glorifying them; the tone of admiration as well as the specific ingredients of what seemed to be Spartanic culture at 480 bc.

Spartans had immersed their lifes, their culture, their "éverything" in service of fighting and winning ány defensive war.(I believe they didn't have real offensive aspirations. Was also impossible)

They saw themselves clearly as a superior race and chosen by god to win any war.
Because of this "mission" they enslaved other Greeks to make their own economy work, because all Spartan men served from childhood the army.

Boys were at the age of 7 separated from their parents and totally immersed to the culture of fighting. When they became about fourteen they were supposed to be "unstable" and were supervised 24 hours a day until about eighteen! Five years in a row being supervised, day and night! (to mention something).

Women were "needed" just as "brooders".

In the first ten years of marriage, a Spartan warrior was nót supposed to actually séé his wife in daylight but only at night, so he'd fully "use her as a sexmachine".
(All quotes are just by head)

Giving birth to a boy was "better" then to a girl.

Whenever a war was needed you were supposed to come back ór as a winner or dead. Nothing else.

Everybody in the Spartan community was keeping an eye at his neighbours.



Whatever you might think of; it áll was shaped to serve war. Emotions, marriage, childhood, families, race, believes, morals, sexuality, aspirations, just name ánything.
It áll had the serve war and in principle just for their ówn small Spartan state.

Their whole exístence was to fight and win any defensive war. (they didn't dare to go that far from their own state in the North of Greece, because they had enslaved many other Greeks and these might rebel when the Spartans were outside their territory.)

It all was described in this T.V. production with a tone of great admiration and gratitude.
Yes, it all was described with a tone of thankfulness.

For - as the story goes - Spartans appeared to have been able to obstruct the Persian attack for three days and that gave the rest of Greece enough confidence to stike back efectively "and save our civilisation".



Just at the very, véry end it is said with another voice and tone,
that "it is rather odd" that the culture of the Spartans saved Greeces specific democratic city-cultures which we know in the West as "democracy".

Yes, that indeed is rather "odd".

To me the Spartan culture was by its own roots a disgusting fascist culture that destroyed all that is specific human, except the body and brain and then ónly to serve as warrior.

"A superior race choosen by god to fight" was the way they saw and behaved themselves.

By accident this repulsive culture made it possible that other Greeks could defend their democratic states, but that had never been the basic aim of the Spartans.
By accident they also defended something good, indirectly.

It was a sickening culture.
Rotten to the core.

Our admiration of ancient "Greece" is much too slavishly.
Our gymnasia are much too easily a breeding place for it.
I did not want my daughter to go to it.
Too alienating from what I see as a good education.
She did learn Greek and Latin at another kind of school.



P.S.

The program that came áfter this one at BBC-2, was called; "Journey to Hell" and was about Peter Owen, cousin of the warpoet Wilfred Owen who was in the trenches in France in the first World War.
Wilfred Owen wrote because of the letters of his cousin the poem;"the sentry".

Whát a difference !

The fact that I reacted to fiercely also relates to my knowledge, that I appear to treat my emotions as a Spartan.

"to fiercely" must be "so fiercely"

Hi, noticed your posting on my journal enter so decided to dig around. Just a few points really.


"The Persians in those days were a superpower and the number of Spartans were very small compared to them."
Bang on the money. The spartans warrior class were only 10,000 strong, compared to the entire persian empire whos forces have never been truely estimated.

"Spartans had immersed their lifes, their culture, their "éverything" in service of fighting and winning ány defensive war.(I believe they didn't have real offensive aspirations. Was also impossible)"
Not so, the Spartans were just as capable of winning an attacking war. Helen of Sparta (Helen of Troy to most people) was won back by the Spartans, and they also attacked and conquered there nearby neighbour whos name i cant remember.

"They saw themselves clearly as a superior race and chosen by god to win any war."
Gods, not god. They were a very supersticious people, and the oracle was what made the Spartans of Thermopylae die when it mattered.

"Because of this "mission" they enslaved other Greeks to make their own economy work, because all Spartan men served from childhood the army."
They enslaved another city state, and indeed they did act as slaves, but at the time in question Sparta had not enslaved other greeks. And not all Spartan men served, only those chosen at birth.

"Women were "needed" just as "brooders"."
Bad way of describing it. The women were valued just as high, if not more then the men, especially towards the end of the Spartans when fewer and fewer Spartans were becoming warriors (for various reason)

"In the first ten years of marriage, a Spartan warrior was nót supposed to actually séé his wife in daylight but only at night, so he'd fully "use her as a sexmachine"."
True, but women had far more freedom then any other women in greece, including in political matters.

"Whenever a war was needed you were supposed to come back ór as a winner or dead. Nothing else."
Exactly and thats what made Spartans so great. They literally walked on to the battlefeild knowing victory, and for several hundred years they were unbeaten in battle just because they would not break.

"Everybody in the Spartan community was keeping an eye at his neighbours."
To some extent. Not quite 1984ish society.

"Whatever you might think of; it áll was shaped to serve war. Emotions, marriage, childhood, families, race, believes, morals, sexuality, aspirations, just name ánything.
It áll had the serve war and in principle just for their ówn small Spartan state."
Spot on. The Spartans prepared for war and they were the best at it.

"It all was described in this T.V. production with a tone of great admiration and gratitude.
Yes, it all was described with a tone of thankfulness."
As it should be. The Spartans are the birth of the modern day army.

"For - as the story goes - Spartans appeared to have been able to obstruct the Persian attack for three days and that gave the rest of Greece enough confidence to stike back efectively "and save our civilisation"."
It was ten days in total. The persian King xerxes gave them a chance to leave. They refused.

"To me the Spartan culture was by its own roots a disgusting fascist culture that destroyed all that is specific human, except the body and brain and then ónly to serve as warrior."
Not so. The fact that Sparta was ruled by two kings not one, and that neither held total power, shows that the society wasnt just some form of dictator ship. On top of that, the Spartans were then governed by a ruling council. They didnt have the mass democracey of Athens, but they got things done, and it worked.

"By accident this repulsive culture made it possible that other Greeks could defend their democratic states, but that had never been the basic aim of the Spartans.
By accident they also defended something good, indirectly."
Why are they a repulsive culture? The Spartans protected themselves and then Greece, just like the rest of the city states. Agreed a lot of things such as reading and writing were seeing as unnecessary for the warrior class, but conversely, they actively encouraged womens rights (other areas of greece had women being born, living, and dying, at home). countless last stands and heroic defences have been made all the more beleivable by the defenders by 300 Spartans and some allies standing at the top of a little pass and slowing down the largest army the world had seen.

"It was a sickening culture.
Rotten to the core."
Well im sorry but i have to totally disagree with you. The Spartan ideology was based around preset tenets written by one of the kings (ill dig up exact details). Once he had left they followed them as a religion. The Samurai, Knights Templar, and the romans, all follow strict doctrines. The romans would probibly never have existed had it not been for Spartan eugenics and doctrines.

"Our admiration of ancient "Greece" is much too slavishly."
I really disagree. The Spartans military speaking, changed the face of the world at the time. There were an honor bond, martial people. Disciplined and trained to do the task at hand.
When the time came for them to do there duty - the Spartans did it.

Thank you for your time, but i beleive you have very different veiw point to the Greeks, and especially the Spartans, then i do. Personally i admire there devotion to duty, the fact that many officers and runners would ignore there orders if they were ordered to retreat.

The documentary is on TV at sunday, sept. 19th, 2004 BBC2 at 18.30

"Spartans at the gate of fire".

I will gladly watch it, but after re-reading what you said i beleive it will have little relevance for your opinion of the Spartans which is sadly wrong

Well, my opinion ís based on that BBC docu which is the same as the one today.

They repeat it now.

So it is "dangerous" for you to watch it

I managed to miss it due to some extremely bad timing although i caught a few glipses in between car journeys. I dont understand how the guy at the end could call it a nightmare society. They encouraged womens rights, were feircely patriotic, and had intense pride in the simplest of tasks.

Slavery - fair enough but then again slavery happened in persia, other parts of greece iirc, and rome. The helots were treated like a worker in an industry. A part of the Spartan war machine which protected them.