h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

hi Alex,

Personal experience tells me that often emotional abuse (as in telling kids nasty stuff and trying to control their emotions) can be just as damaging as physical and sexual abuse. Having experienced all of these - lucky me - I can't say that any one was worse than the other.

The 'good' thing about physical and sexual abuse is that one can later point a direct finger at what was 'wrong and bad' about this. But psychological and emotional abuse is often much more complex, in the sense of knowing exactly *where and when* the abuse took place.


az

Hi Az

Yes but can you not unlearn religious stuff and discover your own way of how the world works?

I'm not talking about verbal and mental abuse I'm talking about parents teaching their kids about their religious beliefs.

Alex.

Alex,

I actually found the religious teachings to be abusive. What I was taught by the priests.

I'm not saying this is always the case - just pointing out that it does and can happen.

az

Hoo's not talking about that though:
<>

He's saying that this is as bad as having sex with children.
?

Alex.

Alex

No he is not. read my last post. It is the process of making a child believe it is correct and OK to have sex with children that Hoo is talking about. In the same way that Creationists make children believe that the world is 6000 years old. That thermodynamics is wrong; that rainbows suddenly appeared without the fabric of the world falling apart due to the laws of physics changing; and the multitude of other perversions of the facts that science gives us that Hoo is talking about.

And I do not think it is that easy to unlearn religion when a lot of what is taught in religion is a Pavlovian reaction to people actions, that your thought processes and what you do are locked into what God wants you to do and you are metaphorically looking over your shoulder to see if God is angry with what you are doing. This subconsciousness is hard to break out of.

These lies and myths and what happens if you do not follow them are driven into you from an early age and I keep catching myself having pangs of guilt over stuff I do that is only seen as a sin from a religious point of view until I realise why I have them - deep rooted, long forgotten hours of sitting in assemblies in primary school having it forced into my head. we forget that it was force fed into us but we do not always forget totally what was force fed into us. Very very subtle twisting of kids minds.

<>

hi to ya all

A couple of thoughts
Imposition of beliefs (true or false) is detrimental to any society , much like communism and elected representation both effecting every person on this planet .[but controlled by the few]

Modern science effected by the writings of ancient writing yes it always will be since a lot of these will be a uneducated persons view of events that are happening today ,for instance strange things dropping from the sky (frogs fish a bowl of petunias) low/high pressure effects .
Burning bush meteor strike ,earth swallowing up town villages ,land slip ! The loafs and fishes early cloning and genetic farming china had gunpowder and Alexandria had battery power for a long time before they became destructive.
Much like religion destructive very destructive when wrong instructions followed ,be interesting to be around in a couple of more thousand years to see what’s new

It's as bad, in my opinion. It's qualitatively different, obviously - only a complete idiot would suggest otherwise, and only a complete idiot would think I meant otherwise. (You know who you are...)

Is paedophilia "as bad" as murder? Is paedophilia "as bad" as selling drugs to kids? Is paedophilia "as bad" as smacking your child, or telling it that it's going to burn in hell for being a sinner?

In every case, you're comparing apples with oranges, but there IS a comparison possible - apples and oranges are about the same size and shape, after all. And in every case, there are valid opinions on both sides.

I've spoken with child abuse victims who honestly feel at times as though they'd prefer it if their abuser had killed them. To them, the abuse was WORSE than murder, because they have to go on living with it. There are those who would say that selling drugs to kids is worse than paedophilia, because it is a cynical profiteering exercise rather than a sick compulsion. Some people want smacking your child made a crime - it already is in many countries - so at least on some level "society" views smacking your child as only QUANTITATIVELY different, not qualitatively different, than paedophilia.

As for "can you not unlearn religious stuff" - well, see az's point above. You presuppose, however, the kind of mind that can see past authority, that can reject a culturally pervasive superstition, that can get through an education riddled with references, and come out the other side unscarred. Not everyone has that kind intelligence - look at Good_News, for example.

And even for people who are lucky enough to have the intellectual capacity to reject superstition taught them by every authority figure in their lives, even if they ARE *able* to unlearn religious stuff - why should they have to?

It's like some horrible experiment in social Darwinism - throw all the children to the dogs, sorry, gods, and the devil take the hindmost. The fittest will survive, unlearn their spurious education and grow up rational. As for the rest, f**k 'em, seems to be what you're saying.

Well, I say no - I say protect the young and weak from those who would rape their minds with superstitious garbage from which they may not ever recover. Sadly I'm in a minority, so apart from anything else, Good_News, you can stow the self-righteous indignation, because you and your kind are safe, as well you know.

H.

<>

And you are protecting them how? Huh?

By having a go at the people who have been brainwashed in the past? Making them defensive? Yeah right that'll work.

You mentioned paedolphilia to get an emotional reaction. For your own amusement and nothing else.

Get real. If you believe in what you say....talk to the children before it's gone too far. Or campaign to make it illegal to spout creationist stuff in Science lesson or write newspaper articles....

Get real.

Alex.

<> (Hoo)

What point? I said I felt it was abusive. I also said I left the church. I never said things couldn't be unlearned - or better said - that they could be understood with more knowledge.

<>

Have you really? Well, we shall just have to disagree in our different personal experiences in that department. All my six siblings were sexually and physically and emotionally abused - none of them ever thought death would have been preferable. In fact, all but one of us are living quite okay lives now. Anecdotal evidence perhaps, but no more or less than yours was.

I think you reached your peak in this debate in post 4, Hoo (which I thought was quite brilliant) - you've been sadly sliding ever since, I'm sorry to say.


az

That "Response" seems awfully familiar. I wonder where he got the idea?

(Hint: A3644804)

<<'I meant that Creationists are AS BAD as paedophiles.'

That has to be one of the most disgusting and offensive remarks I have ever read on this board or off it.>>

You find this offensive?!? So why is it OK for you to accuse people who teach evolution of abusing children?? Or did you think I would forget you saying that to me? I have lost track of how long I have been waiting for you to apologise for that statement. Until you do, may I "respectfully suggest" that you refrain from such hypocritical statements?

Well, one thing I have noticed about Creationists and suchlike is how they are often suddenly 'too busy' to answer; they are suddenly on the way out the door, taking exams, having server problems, giving birth, etc when they get cornered into actually giving clear answers.

It's as if they post stuff in the hope that everyone will be as gullible as they are and just fall for it hook, line and sinker.

Well, at least they're consistant . . .

az

<>

Bob, whilst I understand your objections to the analogy, there is something that G_N has failed to make clear: although he is currently having a paddy about an *implication* that he is in some way *similar* to paedophiles, he has chosen to "forget" that he directly accused several people (myself included) of actually /being/ child abusers because we committed the heinous crime of teaching evolution in science lessons.

So, although your objections have merit from your point of view, G_N has *no right* to object to the comparison. He has a long history of lying and exaggurating to try and hold up his side of an argument, and then refusing to apologise for it, or even acknowledge that he did it, when confronted about it.

>><>

Have you really?<<

I know two people that I know suffered abuse as children. Both attempted suicide - one at the time, the other a decade later.

People attempt and commit suicide for many reasons - it's a question of thresholds. What one person can bear another cannot. And often there are many variables going on.

So I am not saying that abused people don't attempt or commit suicide as a result of their experiences. I think I got stuck on the phrase <> as this seemed a bit melodramatic. Though perhaps it's not all that different from people who say they'd prefer it if they'd never been born.


az

" one thing I have noticed about Creationists and suchlike is how they are often suddenly 'too busy' to answer"

I can report that Good_News is slightly atypical in this respect. He has, after a good deal of badgering, provided a clear answer to my first question.

A clear, incorrect answer. My interest in him is therefore at an end.

Goodnight.

H.

'So why is it OK for you to accuse people who teach evolution of abusing children??'

I did not say that. I said that people who teach evolution as a fact to children will make (or at least help) them to lose faith in God. That is not the same as saying 'you are like a child rapist because you teach children evolution'. Even I do not have the low opinion of people who teach evolution to children (and nor do I try to offend people as much as I can just for fun).

< I said that people who teach evolution as a fact to children will make (or at least help) them to lose faith in God.>

Incorrect in fact, I know many Christians who believe that evolution is how we developed. They just say that evolution is the mechanism by which god created us. Even they can see how absurd creationism is.

Let's get the facts straight, shall we?

The word you used was "abuse". You said that teaching children evolution made the lose their faith, and that it was a form of abuse. I told you that I teach evolution, and asked if you were calling me a child abuser. You said that if I was teaching evolution, I was abusing children. I demanded an apology for this libel, you refused.

You did something similar to JTB, and he is also waiting for an apology.

'The word you used was "abuse". You said that teaching children evolution made the lose their faith, and that it was a form of abuse.'

I did not say that. I said that if you teach evolution as a fact to children then you will make them lose faith in God. I said nothing about abuse. JTB accused me of calling him a child abuser but they were his words, not mine.

However, it would be abuse if you ridiculed Creationist children in schools and bullied them for their beliefs.