h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'd say the child would benefit more by being born, and dying cradled in her mother's and father's arms, than she'd benefit by being ripped to shreds, or "salted out"...

In the past, when their was no choice, then a lot of disabled children ended up living in institutions.

My personal opinion is that I would only abort a child with Edwards Syndrome, and not any of the others. Obvious the decsion would be my wife's, not mine as it's her body.

If I knew that a child had Down's Syndrome it would depend on my age, and how many children I already had, and whether or not I'd be able to provide for a child for life. I wouldn't want to give my exisiting children a lifelong financial responsiblity to care for their siblings.

Az - yes their was a time when it was thought that newborn babies didn't feel pain in the same way as adults. I don't know the exact dates, but I think it was up until the 1970s.

As for pain relief leading to reduced awareness, it depends what sort of pain relief we're talking about, I'm currently taking paracetamol for a sore throat, but that's not reducing my awareness!

However most moderate - severe pain requires opiates and that does reduce awareness. I don't know what quality of life neonates with Edwards Syndrome would have.

In the case of Edwards Syndome I would do whatever would make my wife suffer the least.

Perhaps we could have a mature discussion without using emotive language and personal insults.

If instead of your post Apple, could you not have put

'I think an abortion would cause more suffering than being born and dying in their mothers and father's arms'

The trouble with these hypothetical scenarios is that it is easy to say I would do X, Y or Z but until it is really happening to me, and I am fully aware of all the facts of my circumstance *at that time* I can't say for sure.

I see, Z, that I could perhaps have put it differently, but it's an emotive issue to me, and I think sometimes it's worth actually stating what an abortion, sorry, induced termination involves!

It's not pretty.

I agree that it's difficult to know what you'd do until you were in a particular situation.

I have one experience of this kind of thing:

Someone I know recently found out she had cancer while she was pregnant. They needed to blast her with chemo and couldn't wait for a baby to go to term. There didn't seem to be any precedent for knowing how the baby would be affected - the doctors said that people usually abort in such cases. She decided to keep the baby and had the treatment. Chemo through the pregnancy and later on radiotherapy (so she couldn't breast-feed). Baby is 100% perfect (and yes, I know things could have turned out differently) and we are all So pleased

Jules

I guess it would mostly depend on how early the disease could be detected, and on my position to care for a sick or disabled child.

When I terminated my pregnancy in 1995, I had a Norplant implant (contraceptive) in, and was taking Prednisone for asthma. Not one, not two, but three different doctors all warned me about the odds of serious congenital birth defects and/or disability due to taking the birth control and the steroids. Three factors contributed to my decision:

(1) the pregnancy was detected very early in the first trimester, well before the embryo developed into a fetus or anything resembling a baby. I would be very unlikely to terminate a late-term pregnancy, an actual baby, except if my life depended on it.

(2) the fact that I *was* using birth control (implants- no chance of a screw-up on my part. I could look up a link to info on Norplant if anyone wanted me to) and strong steroids that made it quite likely I'd give birth to a seriously ill child. I think it a far greater mercy to spare someone that kind of suffering if I'm in a positionto do so.

(3) the fact that at the time I did not have adequate medical coverage to provide medical care even for myself, not to mention a sick child. At the time I earned $26,000 a year, double the amount that would make me eligible for public assistance, but half the amount I'd need to care for a healthy person, not to mention a sick child.

It wasn't an easy decision to make, though.

<>

It's good to hear it all worked out so well, Jules.

Apple : thanks for listening to my point. I'm not saying that you shouldn't post the information I'm just saying that posting it without using emotive language makes it a better agrument.

The problem with emotive arguments is that a discussion comes down to who has the most heart wrenching story - which is great, but in reality we have to look at bigger pictures and facts.

Jules - I'm delighted your friends baby was ok!

Psychocandy Thank you for sharing your story with us. It must have been such a difficult decsion to make, and I admire your bravery for posting it.

Yes, thank you, Psychocandy. I always feel honoured when someone shares such information and feelings with us on here

Personally, I don't think I would terminate in any of the given cases, but it would depend on my personal circumstances & the stage of pregnancy at which the diagnosus was made. I would probably only consider termination in the first two.

However, I defend the right of others to make their own choice without the imposition of opposing views.

What is available in the way of impartial, trained counsellors for this sort of situation?


What about the other scenarios, Z? Is the implication that people feel less able to cope with a mental disability than a physical one?

Az - Even in the early 1980s, the accepted practice was to not even prescribe pain-killers for babies undergoing procedures as invasive as open-heart surgery. It was assumed that babies' nervous systems were not developed enough to register any significant amounts of pain.
Recent research has shown that even babies born three months prematurely and weighing only 500 to 600 grams can feel pain. It's only really in the past decade that awareness of babies' sensitivity to pain has become an issue - even now, procedures such as circumcision are carried out on babies without anaethesthetic, though no grown man would ever be expected to cope with that pain!

>What is available in the way of impartial, trained counsellors for this sort of situation?<

I know that the women's clinic I dealt with had many trained counsellors, and that all women contemplating the procedure were required to be counselled first. The lady I talked to suggested I talk with another counsellor of my choice, too, just to ensure that I wasn't feeling pressured or ambivalent or anything like that. She was very supportive and compassionate.

Jules and Z, thanks for the support. I don't mind sharing.

<> (maxharley)

I find this very bizarre (to say the least). I mean, wtf? Why wouldn't babies feel pain? Why wouldn't doctors realise this?


az

Hi psychocandy,

I add my s and s for your very brave posting.

Thank you for that.

az

Seems pretty bizarre to me too. Babies react to their surroundings, show distress, and so on. One would at least have thought the burden of proof was on those who who argued that babies *don't* experience pain.

Noggin

Regarding inevitable or extreme likelihood of death I feel it probably would be best to terminate the pregnancy as giving birth remains quite risky to the mother.

The rest, I feel would probably not be by themselves sufficient reason, but that would be assuming everything else was perfect i.e. the mother wanted a child in the first place, was able to provide for it etc.

The last, I'm not sure it should be any consideration at all, but I guess I don't know to what extent being that short would affect someone's quality of life.

i dont think it should be considered at all unless both the baby and mother are definatly going to die.

thanx psychocandy for sharing that - mustve been really hard to do


but despite that i dont think there is any other acceptable excuse to end someones life. imho.


(hi btw im liz!)

I'm actually relieved, having re-read Jules's posting, to read that her friend who had cancer was able to get chemo, carry her pregnancy to term, and both she and the baby are okay! That must have been a really tough choice to make, too. It takes a brave person to risk their own life.