h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

How do religious people explain this, you asked, az? As a "religious person" I'll make a stab at not an explanation, because I don't think we are required to explain each disaster that comes along, but here are some thoughts...

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That's the main point. The science of it is as the guy says, coherent. God doesn't step in and stop a tsunami here, a volcano there, because God doesn't play favourites. We live on a geologically unstable planet, as who should know better? New Zealand has dozens of earthquakes each year, thankfully most of them small enough to, at the most, smash the odd ornament that falls off a shelf.
God works nowadays, and has chosen to do so, through people. Hollywood not withstanding, people do not have the power (yet?) to predict or prevent earthquakes and their sequelae.
If you wish that God should step in and prevent this, or do that, where does it stop? As I've said on another thread, if God did intervene on a seemingly random basis, science and its predictive power would be shot to hell. Chaos would reign and not in a good way - it'd be more like the Courts therof in the Roger Zelazny novels. For people to be able to do what they're supposed to do - get on with their lives, and (ideally) assist each other - stability and predictability are necessary.

ok, so God can't intervene on a regular basis because that would violate the natural laws he set up but why those particular natural laws?
why, in this best of all possible worlds, if there is a triple-O God, did he decide we needed hurricanes, volcanoes, tidal waves etc?

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As Eric Morecambe used to say "there's no answer to that"... Really, although that sounds flippant, it's true, that I simply don't know! Others might have a better answer - but not me, sadly.

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You say this stuff with such certainty, Della, but honestly - how could you actually know how or why God works, nowadays or at any other time?


az

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But on a human scale natural disasters are generally *not* predictable, and are seriously destabilising for those involved in them.

Science can explain why these things happen *given that the universe works according to the rules that it does*. But if one posits a God who could have set things up differently, then this is not the sort of answer one is looking for, but rather one couched in terms of motivation. And ifone can't make sense of the motivation then one has not really answered anything.

Noggin

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It seems they did try and it backfired . . .


"Talks with Sikhs backfired on theatre"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1380382,00.html

"Actor says consultation gave community representatives the impression they had a veto on play that led to violent protests"


az

get a life

What do you mean Della should "get a life" I'll have you know she has a life and even at one stage two persoanlities!

Dont be horrible yto Della, well not until you've waited your turn.

Thing is, Della, *I* don't think that your God created this most recent disaster but you will hear from people who survived or whose family members survived - 'Thank God!'

It's these people who confuse me. Since they obviously believe their God stepped in to save themselves or their families would they not also believe that He also caused the earthquake and subsequent tsunami? In which case, why thank Him?


az

Hi shifty,

At first I thought you were saying this to ME as your posting directly followed one of mine with no reference to who you were talking to. *free advice alert* Always best to refer to the person you are addressing when you post stuff, to avoid confusion . . .

Meanwhile, Della does indeed have a life, as do we all. It's just some of her ideas and opinions that I disagree with.


az

"God works in mysterious ways." Which is another way of saying, "My cosmology is insufficient to deal with this seeming contradiction with it. But I lack the sense to see I may be wrong and begin a re-evaluation of that cosmology."

Oh sorry to others who have already seen this (the third time I've posted this quote on hootoo today) but it also seems to fit in here:

"Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat."

-John Morley, statesman and writer (1838-1923)


az

To all the creationists out there just want to say: "YOUR GOD SUCKS AT BASIC DESIGN". He couldn't even be bothered to weld the tectonic plates together to stop them slipping and causing earthquakes; DOH!

OK, that's out the way.

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You are correct, Della, God does not step in and stop the odd tsunami here and there. His miracles tend to be every day occurences that can be rationally explained without the need for supernatural intereference.

"God works nowadays, and has chosen to do so, through people."

Now, this really does get my f'ing goat that idea. The fact that religious people slap aside the basic goodness of people to help others - basic humanity done knowingly by humans to help each other down to God doing it through them. Hence, removing the idea that the human race does good - no God does good - humans get blamed for the evil bad things in life. Unless of course you decide to blame SATAN - ah ha ha ha rub hands raise evil eyebrow.

Just after the Beslen occurence(add your own superlative) the ArchBishop Rowan Williamson, I believe, was asked - "Where was God yesterday?" A few seconds of him spluttering was followed by him saying that God could not stop the evil that people do in the world God. But just imagine in one of those classrooms, the sports hall, one child putting their arm round another to comfort them; that is where God was -NO, it was not that is where a human being thought through the sheer terror of the situation to try and comfort another. A HUMAN with their own thoughts and will. And what happens some bearded moron in a dress reduces it down to basically an Act of God - thanks you really know how to remove the idea of power from humans - it is the way religion has survived make us think we are weak and not able to make our own actions.

When things happen by the hands of human beings it is US that makes those decisions good or evil and we had better bloody well all come to realise that so we can stand up and sort all this cr*p out instead of using the excuse of some supernatural being controlling us or telling us what to do or using him as an excuse to do worse to those that have hurt us.

Happy New Year!

we are all born into this life with a path to follow thats the easy bit the hard bit is staying on the path plus i do think that things that happen good or bad are all meant to happen ,we are all here for a purpose , shifty

And what purpose was served by the deaths of those 100,000 (?) people? If you're going to take that many lives you'd think that He could at least make the message clear

9/11 newyork was that gods fault too

well the people responsible for it believed they were serving God, Allah being the Arabic word for God

but surely god can get it wrong just like the rest of us

"We live on a geologically unstable planet"

Another standard religious technique - state the bleedin obvious as though it's a revelation.

Yes, the planet is unstable geologically. The question is - why? Why put your "chosen" people in such a dangerous position? It's like a "loving" parent setting their kids loose on a balsa wood raft in the middle of the Pacific to show how much they love them. Er... hello? Wouldn't it have been nicer to keep them somewhere safe?

There is no NEED per se for this planet to be geologically active. We know this because we have three other nearby examples to look at - Mercury, Venus and Mars are all completely tectonically stable. Frankly, if there is a god, he's a nasty little sadist. He's hung three examples of safe-looking planets within easy observable reach, and left us on the one that still regularly falls to bits, spits poisonous gas, rattles and shakes and pour molten rock over the landscape. Cheers god. For an encore why don't you hold a chocolate bar just out of our reach while you hit us in the face with a cricket bat? Scumbag.

Now onto my favourite comment:

"God doesn't play favourites"

Absolutely correct.

On the western edge, most of the casualties would have been Hindu, perhaps Muslim. On the eastern edge, Muslim or Buddhist. Thousands of tourists, Christian and Jewish, were also likely killed or injured. So in other words - it doesn't matter a jot what your religious affiliation is. God hates everyone equally, and arranges for your violent and pointless death regardless of how you choose to believe in him.

Great. This makes all evangelism immediately and obviously pointless, doesn't it?

"If you wish that God should step in and prevent this, or do that, where does it stop?"

Have you heard of a book, I think it's called "The Bible", Della? Quite a lot of people who call themselves Christians have, I understand. In it, your god steps in and prevents all sorts of things, all the time. Mostly, Christians seem comfortable with the idea of god doing that - you know, turning water into wine (at one wedding who presumably were just lucky), raising the dead (one at a time and on no particular basis of need), healing the sick (obviously only a very, very few of the sick), murdering entire cities down to the last innocent child.

Now, the question on my mind is this: Your god was happy, even until two thousand years ago, to intervene so very directly in human affairs, healing, transmuting and murdering. Why did he stop? He seemed to do so quite suddenly and for no reason I've ever had adequately explained.

Just curious...

" if God did intervene on a seemingly random basis, science and its predictive power would be shot to hell"

But what would that matter? If god intervened, we wouldn't NEED science. We could just talk to him, and he could sort things out. Isn't that what he is FOR?

"For people to be able to do what they're supposed to do...stability and predictability are necessary."

I do love the view from Planet Della. I'd love to visit one day, but it's so far from earth we may never have the technology.

On Planet Della, a 10 metre high wall of water hitting your home at 200 miles per hour without any warning is an ideal example of "stability and predictability". I'd hate to imagine what you think the world would be like if your god was in charge, if this is preferable....

H.