h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Very nice. Very subtle. And at the *most* reductionist level: correct.

I doubt that what most Americans fear from terrorists is the ideological threat. They fear for their physical health, it seems to me.

If the attack on the World Trade Center attack were seen as ideological, then the response would have been "Damn that Bin Laden! He's saturated worldwide TV with a stunt that beats Hollywood! Ignore him, quick!"

That was not the response I saw: it seemed to have more to do with the first physical assault on the USA.



On the wider question of "live and let live": does that extend to bacteria and viruses?

But that physical threat is only there because of the ideology. Without the ideology there would be no threat.

Really?

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Utter nonsense! All you have to do is look at recent history to see why 9/11 and things like it have happened and will continue to happen. It goes back to 1953, and the overthrow by the CIA of Iran's leader.

(Well, no doubt it goes back much further, but even so, to say that it has really got anything to do with Islam is just absurd!



Vicky

Yes, absolutely, clearly Al Queda (sunni wahhabi) were terribly upset by the overthrow of a Shia govt.

NOT!!!!

Oh nameless one, you are *so* missing the point!

Throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, a government, let's call it, oh, *your* one, has been overthrowing "regimes" it didn't like. It doesn't matter whether it's Shi-ite, Sunni, or whatever - the fact is, that the *USA* has acted as if it rules the world, whilst hardly being aware that even Europe exists. Your W., didn't even know the name of the leader of Pakistan when he was electorated!

All this manipulation had to bite it on the butt sooner or later!

Vicky

There was a 9/11 before 2001, you know - when your govt overthrew Allende...

No you are.

You employ the exact same logic that the ignorant masses in the US did in justifying the wars in the first place.

You yourself agree with W on a wide range of issues (Terri Schiavo; abortion; religion; etc.)

When people have your ignorant, uninformed views, it leads to the catastrophes of the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions.

You really do need to read up on Islam, indoctrination in religions in general, and the type of person who would willing fly into a building killing themselves and 1000’s of other people. The root of it is ideology NOT simply politics. There are other ways of sorting out political problems from 50years…and flying a plane into a building isn’t the way.

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And yet I despise the man! Or do you still accuse me of supporting him? (One of the nastier things you've said about me, in a pair of years of spiteful, insane over the top accusations. You believe, no doubt because you very much want to, that W's alleged views on abortion, religion etc are sincere. Give me a break!

You don't seem to get that people can't be put in boxes and categories. I can agree with someone on one or two issues(assuming W., cares about abortion, religion or Terri Schiavo, which I doubt), and disagree on other things... and that's how life is, it's much more complex than you think...

Vicky

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Firstly, what ways would *you* suggest?

Second, it's been six years - and you still accept the official story - it all happened the way Dubya and Cheney and Karl Rove said it did?

Vicky

Well I would suggest something that might actually have a slim chance of working like: diplomatic talks: it’s how civilized countries do it (Obviously not the USA).

Ramming a few planes into buildings in the USA simply makes the US angry.



Um, no I read the information in the public domain both ‘the facts’ and conspiracy theories, I saw the footage, and saw two planes hit two buildings that collapsed because the New York Port Authorities scrimped on the steel work.

I suppose you also believe M15 killed Princess Diana.

But you do believe in fairy stories though don’t you so I really would not expect you to judge facts and fiction and distil the truth with any rational thought.

Recumbentman unsubscribing. Bye.

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And you believe those planes were hijacked by 19 Afghanis, er, Iraqis, Iranians or - say, when will they become Venezuelans or Koreans?
http://www.911research.wtc7.net/
and
http://www.911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/identities.html

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ER, frankly, I couldn't care less about Princess Diana... but no, I believe a chase by paparazzi and a possibly drunk driver killed her.

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Sigh... That's just spiteful... and the level of argument I've come to expect from you!

No, the comment was not spiteful it was based on viewing your conversations and stating of what you believe over the past few years. Nothing spiteful about it. Once , again it is looking at a number of facts and coming up a conclusion...which I believe is where we started talking about many years ago: facts.

Thought for the Day, 10 October 2007

Faith is how we accept what is beyond our control.

Madeleine Bunting

So Gordon Brown has had a difficult decision to make. In all the flood of advice offered him, a phrase jumped out at me - an election would be 'an act of faith not of reason' It jarred because over the last few weeks, like thousands of other parents, I've been going through the process of making a difficult decision myself - choosing a secondary school for my ten year old, and I've been acutely aware of how much that decision is an act of faith as well as of reason.

To place faith and reason in opposition is false. For example in choosing a school, we are being asked to have faith - do we trust that the school does what it says it does; do we have faith in the inspection regime which produces the reports - are they assessing the school on the criteria we consider valuable. And my child: do I have faith in him or her to flourish in a particular environment. Any difficult decision - having a baby, making a long term commitment to a partner - is about faith, our trust and confidence both in ourselves, and in others. Even in the most mundane parts of our lives, faith is vital: whenever we get in a car, a train or an airplane, we are expressing our faith in the responsibility and expertise of other people. Faith is a vital part of how we take risks calmly and without fear.

But our culture is strangely dismissive; 'faithful' is a term we reserve for a dog or loyal members of a political party - there's more than a hint of reproach for their unquestioning constancy. Other cultures understand how human beings need faith and how to strengthen it, but our culture I believe, having lost much of its religious faith, has lost its insight into the nature of faith altogether, referring to it as irrational or, as in my dictionary, 'lacking logical proof.'

We need, I think, to re-examine our prejudices and resurrect the idea of faithfulness. There are important values embedded in this word: 'a faithful account' is accurate and true; 'in good faith' is about a promise; 'to keep faith' is to keep that promise. These principles of constancy, integrity and commitment are how we build the faith of others- our children, partners, colleagues, friends - in ourselves just as, in turn, they build our faith in them. Faith is how we accept what is beyond our control, and recognise each other's freedom. How we relate to each other must be full of faithfulness if we are to create communities, a society. Faithfulness is about living with trust and confidence instead of anxiety, fearfulness, suspicion and cynicism.

Oh...I was just about to come in late...but now I see that Recumbentman has unsubbed, and that's almost always a bad sign.

All I was going to say...obviously when one heres the vapid Ann Atkins or the morally pompou Clifford Longley, one wants to hurl one's radio across the room. Oh - or that reactionary Jonathan Sacks. On the other hand - is Rabbi Blue not a constant treasure? It's always a treat to start the week with him.

It's other saving graces are Indarjit Singh, who talks tolerant good sense even if he does use the g-word...and Mona Siddiqi. No, I by no mean share her religion. But how many other intelligent, devout Muslim women do we have in the public eye? Her presence is vital to the health of the nation in these times. Plus she's from Glasgow!

Yes, I do wish they'd have some secular contributors - not to diss religion, but because I feel it's important to make it clear that religion isn't essential for morality. Plus...where have all the intelligent Christians gone? They used to have some, but I've not heard any in a good few years. I don't even rate that Iona Community whatsisname.

Madeleine Bunting:

Is she not getting a little confused by the fact that a single English word can have several different meanings? To say that Reason must be applied over Faith in some issue is by no means to say that faith in people (ie an assumption of trust) of faith (ie loyalty) are not useful or virtuous. her sermon makes about as much sense as looking for toes at the foot of the stairs.

I'd put her in the same pile as Ann Atkins.

And to people who believe in fairy tales and people rising from the grave etc which I notice she did not include



For culture replace with 'religion'



That is exactly what it is though: lacking in logical proof.

So lets look at what she puts 'faith' in at the start:

Rational people would not put 'faith' into these things they would base their views on the fact that the people in the schools and carrying out the reviews etc will have been properly trained. Does one need 'faith' in that or the common fact that people get trained corrcetly to cary things out. We could, if we really wanted to, get hold of the training records etc of the people carrying out the work to prove to ourselves that we do not 'need faith'.

However, with the common usage of the word faith: that of believing in Gods and resurretions there is no corroboration with religious and Biblical texts hence faith is 'unquestioning belief in something unprovable'.



Do you need to have faith in your child to do that. I would ask where you are putting that faith: in your ability to choose the right school, or in your childs ability to cope with the school(which is a known unknown)- there is no faith involved in they either thrive or they do not - of course if one knows ones child and has brought them up correctly should one not have a more than faith and know pretty well what type of school would suit them?



Once again, why do you do you need 'faith' in these and in others? If one is so uncertain about oneself then I would suggest some therapy or help groups or find out what exactly having a baby entiails to help find out what sort of a person you are...then make a rational decision on whether you think you could cope or not...not just have 'faith' in it.

<Even in the most mundane parts of our lives, faith is vital: whenever we get in a car, a train or an airplane, we are expressing our faith in the responsibility and expertise of other people.

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. We are not putting any faith or expertise in these people: driving and flying requires tests to be taken to ensure one has the expertise to carry out those functions. That licence says the person is capable.



Well, if you take faith as a vital part of risk taking then we have anotehr Darwin Awards winner. Risk is definable and can be calculated based on various factors leaving the residual risk that cannot be controlled. However there is no faith in hoping nothing will happen. It may happen but if the probability and/or consequences are low then you can do something knowing exactly what that risk is.

However, with the common usage of the word faith: that of believing in Gods and resurretions there is no corroboration with religious and Biblical texts hence faith is 'unquestioning belief in something unprovable'.



Why because it might make belief in gods and supernatural beings less stupid?



Semantics, simple as that.



I think we can see enough in the multitude of different sectors of Christian religious cults that there is no constancy in what one should have 'faith' in or faith itself.



No faith is about hiding behind irrationality and hoping it never happens or goes wrong.

Rationality is about facing those fears, knowing it may go wrong and accepting the consequences when it does.

Or In short: people use the word 'faith' in incorrect contexts...