h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Come on, they're hardly the people to do that, they've already gone and bought an option that only pays out when they die after all .

God is a loan-shark.

"If not then it isn't really 'you' that lives on and there is no 'eternal life'. Does this make sense to you?"

Yes it does. I appreciate your thought process too.
You are far more eloquent than I.
Ok I'll try to put this into words.

I know it is long - The last part is a short story.

I think it's possible there may be parts of the *you* we are not aware of. Knowing the future ahead of time could change choices. Think of all the time travel movies - it is never a good idea to mess with the timeline. It seems to be a lasting human myth.

Say you dedicated your life to a noble pursuit or line of study.
Or for some it would be the unique things only *you seem to notice as you move through this life.
Could be any other thing too.

Your knowledge,experience,thoughts,questions ,feelings(not sure about that) enters the collective.
Maybe you will "see the ripple effect" of what you have contributed.
Maybe you will experience the joy. Maybe your rightful fears will alert another. Same goes for having done some not so great things.
Maybe it will serve a greater purpose to see those ripples.

Maybe there is work to be done that we cannot fathom.
It makes sense to me that humans will continue to evolve with a purpose.

We have free will, angels don't.
Surely there is a reason for both.

I think there are reasons for us being individual creative beings. It is hard for me to believe we struggle through this life for no future value or ongoing purpose.

***********
Yesterday I meet a young man.

He knew how to build boardwalks.

Not so special but where he put them was.
He enabled wheelchair users to see and touch things in places they could not before.

Just a summers project a long while back.
Nearly forgotten as time moves on.

Years later by accident he ends up in a wheelchair.
He now uses that boardwalk for his own pleasure to touch the things he was missing.

He was feeling a bit out of himself rolling along that boardwalk yesterday. I only saw 2 small groups in 3 hours.

Unknowingly I roll by and say Isn't this a magnificent idea? I am so happy to be a mile up a mountain again and not by a road or throngs of people! I was begining to think it was possible.
*happy tears*
I'd like to thank the person with the idea.
I'd like ot contribute something too. Hubby said he would be happy to help with the labor. He said the lady at the bottom will be happy to hear that.

It was his mother and she told me the first part of this story
Such is life this round! It may be an eternal, I hope so.
********
I am very tired today,so I hope this makes sense.

Because it was mentioned earlier -I'd like to say I did not get my beliefs or wishes due to illness. I had them before and they have not drastically changed. I try to keep open about unknown possibilities.

That line does crack me up Badger.
Maybe not for the same reasons as you , dunno ,but it does!

About age on the other side.
I have read 30 (coincidentally ? about the age Christ died) is the common age to be in afterlife.

If you die as child then you retain some of the playful childhood you would have missed, but have the wisdom of 30.
No proof or links,just a theme in readings.

***************
Maybe for those whose life has changed so drastically, it can nearly be equated with two lives. Loss of all kinds is a little death. Perhaps it is easier to think of moving on to an afterlife if you feel this one has already been like two. If you have reinvented yourself because of new circumstances it might seem less odd.

Observing somebody who has lost all they thought they were or in experiencing it might be preparation for such a transformation.
I think dreams are also emotional preparation (walk-thrus)for some things to come.

Outsiders sometimes guess or assume a personal crisis changes or creates faith out of desperation.
I do not think it is common. People just seem to *notice if faith is present when observing others in trials they cannot imagine.

Some use experiences to prove God is dead so I do not think it holds a lot of weight that God is a crutch for the changed or injured ones among us.

Shew - Gotta lay down.
I'll check back.

I wasn't necessarily saying that the 32 hypothesis is correct, but that's what I've heard suggested - my first brother died as a baby, and I first heard the 32 idea from my mother, who was speculating as to what he would look like, who had looked after him and brought him up etc.
I have always believed in a soul, and I have heard enough stories from friends, family and in general, to support the afterlife hypothesis. People have had contact with those who have died - take J B Phillips, the New Testament scholar, who had a meeting with C S Lewis, who dropped by post-mortem to chat with him for some time!
So, it's more than just a "feeling". What I have heard, is that we retain our memories, our personality and some of our foibles... I also believe that the traumas we have experienced are in some way healed...

Ever strike you as too good to be true? Easy way out? etc.

Do you really think its possible to have yourself without your traumas?

Abbi,

That's a nice story. I hope you don't think that because I'm an atheist I'm untouched by the human condition.

"It is hard for me to believe we struggle through this life for no future value or ongoing purpose."

It's hard for me too but that's the price of taking a rationalist stance. You don't 'choose' to believe something - you just believe it because it fits your beliefs. You don't go out one day and decide 'I choose to believe in "M Theory" or "visiting aliens" or the "Kennedy Conspiracy" or God or whatever - you believe in it because you are convinced by the arguments and/or it meets your emotional needs.

I don't believe in an immortal soul because it leaves too many loose ends. The most basic of these is 'what is the relationship between who I am and who/what my soul is?' Is a soul a bit like the SIM card in a cellphone perhaps?

F

"It is hard for me to believe we struggle through this life for no future value or ongoing purpose."

Its really very easy for me to believe that it is all pointless. Why should it be otherwise

Where is there *any* indication to the contrary?

Worlds coliding, strong and weak nuclear forces, all the stuff that happens randomly just so that our souls can soar like the birds we so envy in to the light we love.*Note*, not burrow into the ground like the animals we loathe or into the dark we fear.

I have seen nothing to suggest that the *whole* idea of the soul was not dreamt up by humans scarred that their struggles were all for nothing and propogated largely by Hucksters desperate to make an easy buck from the fearful and gullible.

one love

Blicky:

couldn't have said it better myself.



As I've mentioned, I've never seen any evidence that it isn't all without a point. Furthermore, I have never felt the least bit of discomfort with the idea that it is pointless. Indeed, I have a hard time fathoming either why anyone would imagine that there was a point or why anyone would feel uncomfortable with an ultimately pointless existence.

Isn't there enough real stuff to keep us busy and happy? Why cloud one's experience of the world with unsupportable personal ideas that are absolutely internal (imaginary) and unsharable? Why not experience the joy of the real world with friends without shutting down the sharing by bringing up meaningless (because they transmit no information) personal symbols like 'soul' and 'god'?

I don't get it.

Blicky, Anhaga,

You're both right IMHO but not everyone can handle that knowledge. How much easier is it to tell a bereaved widow or orphan that "they've gone to a better place" or "you'll meet them again one day" than to be limited to merely "I'm sorry"?

This is where religion often fills a void in people's lives. While you are apparently able to cope with the finality (and certainty) of death, not everyone has that capacity and needs to believe that there is 'something more'. I came to the conclusion that everything is random, meaningless and unfair a long time ago and quickly got used to the idea but many people could never deal with it.

F

"I hope you don't think that because I'm an atheist I'm untouched by the human condition."

Of course not. In fact I'd rather have an atheist with integrity than our current (US) President. Compassion is a seperate topic.

I believe in a creator not a Religion.

"you believe in it because you are convinced by the arguments and/or it meets your emotional needs" F

Not true. I see that my emotional needs are met.

"I don't believe in an immortal soul because it leaves too many loose ends" F

What is often touted in science, but not proven, leaves a lot of loose ends.
Science has been wrong. Science has holes.
Some Math problems have not been settled right?

The best and most creative scientist keep open minds.
You cannot prove there is no room or reason for a creator.

My mind is open to new explainations and wonders, that does not make me irrational.
I have not decided nearly as much as you want to assume I have.
I have not closed my mind to anything.
I do not have all the answers wrapped up in a neat package and that is quite alright.

I never start these conversations!
This is a civil oneso I entered.

"How much easier is it to tell a bereaved widow or orphan that "they've gone to a better place" or "you'll meet them again one day" than to be limited to merely "I'm sorry"?"

I am curious- do you have a lot of experience with death?

"I am curious- do you have a lot of experience with death?"

I know the question wasn't directed at me but:

I work in a business with a large close-knit regular clientel of senior citizens. All of them become a regular part of my day, many have become good friends. More than I can count have died over the last two decades, some literally as I've watched.

So, no. I don't have a lot of personal experience with death, as I'm still alive. But I've certainly seen a lot of people having their own personal experiences with death.

I dont know this as been covered .As i havent read all of this thread.So here goes i myself have witnessed somebody dying in front of me.and also have been told by somebody before they died .that members of their family who had allready had died .had been to them 2 times to visit them .in human form .And the person who told me wasnt a person to lie .thats just 1 of the numerous stories i have heard. say %50 of the tails ive heard was untrue .that leaves %50 of the rest unexplained .that goes alongside the fact we havent got a clue how life began .no doubt one of you.will explain how life came about . but that dont take away from the point if you start of with nothing .how can there be something .we are all on a journey to become a god like .thats if we dont destroy ourselfs doing it .whos to say we havent already become immortal .

'we havent got a clue how life began'



we haven't got a clue how god began. we haven't got a clue how souls began. we haven't got a clue . . .



maybe there's a good reason we can't find any clues . . .

maybe they aren't there to be found . . .

or maybe god's a mean bugger who hides all the clues so that only those with incredible faith (or credulity or gullibility) will bother with him.






BTW. I've watched people die. I've known a great many people who have died while they've been my friends. I've known a great many people very well who have watched their loved ones die. I've known a number of WWII veterans quite well who watched their buddies die or dug desperately to get buddies out of the rubble of booby-trapped buildings only to find that they were too late. And guess what? None of them told me any immortality/afterlife/soul anecdotes.

Frankly, the anecdotes don't really mean a lot to me, one way or the other.

Until there's something more than anecdote, it's nothing more than anecdote.

I'm saying goodbye to this thread, thanks for the conversation everyone.
See you around.
Happy trails to you!

<< Is a soul a bit like the SIM card in a cellphone perhaps?>>

Actually, that's a good hypothesis..

Okay. I'm not exactly sure what a SIM card is: my cell phone is quite primitive. I do, however, have a flash memory card in my PDA. And I can take it out of the PDA and plug it into my notebook. And I can put my PDA through the xray at airport security and they'll be able to see the Flash memory card. And I'm sure a fairly simple electronics whiz could work our a way to not only detect my flash memory card talking to my PDA, but could actually tell what the thing is saying.

But, again, no one, anywhere, has ever to my knowledge explained how the SIM card called a soul talks to the cell phone called a body.

How does it work? If the soul communicates in a way undetectable to any matter except the human body, is there something special about the human body? If there is nothing special about the human body, why are the soul's emanations apparently undetectable by any other physical means?

If the SIM hypothesis is of any use, then the cell phone must have no socket for the SIM, the SIM must be invisible to all artificial detectors except the cell phone, and the SIM must function according to principles and with energies undetectable by artifical means.

I guess we're talking about magic. Or magick.

I wish we'd just call a spade a spade.