h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Following the recent discussions about the PACE Act, and the ability to claw back assets from criminals, I wonder if it possible for the UN to consider, then implement, a similar practice with regard to certain dictators around the world who have systematically siphoned off money intended for their people.

Perhaps it could be called GTMB ( Get The Money Back ). Others might then be deterred, and the population helped in alternate ways. Do posters think that the Swiss Banks etc ( who presumably contain the funds ) could be compelled to hand them over, after a Security Council Resolution?

We could all make a list of the dictators involved. The first name on mine would be Robert Mugabe. Surely his millions are not in Zimbabwean Dollars!. A colleague told me yesterday that he had read somewhere that Ayatollah Khomeni was worth about £2million - if thats true what does he need it for?

It is perhaps a mad and impractical idea, but it constantly angers me when I come across reports of the wealth of the likes of R.M. , particularly when this wealth has come from donor countries trying to help others.

Novo

Top of my list would be the names Bush, Cheney (sp?) and Rumsfeld (sp?).

I think the idea's a good one, Novo, and I wish there was a practical way of achieving it, but I suspect there isn't.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

There might be a practical way of achieving it, except there will always be impractical people making impractical statements (e.g. post 2), which would dissuade anyone from pursuing it.

Have the American Govt been given aid money by the UN? I doubt it. So they can't be forced to give it back. Simple. No?

TRiG.

I thought the theme was recovering money from gangsters who'd stolen it from their own country/countrymen, and taken it for themselves and their friends? Does the source have to be the UN before it becomes wrong to steal it?

The suggestion won't work in practice because those who would have to agree to it today are the ones who will need to bolt with suitcases full of other people's money tomorrow. And the people who will give them asylum are their successors, who they wouldn't want to upset either. Corruption is endemic.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Was there not some UN aid for hurricane Katrina? Or was that done by country? Doubt that was siphoned off by the government in any way though.

I suppose you might argue that the US being deliberately behind on its share of the funding for the UN is theft.

Basically, it's really, really, really, stupid to say that you're going to use the UN to go after members of the UN security council. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. But people would try that (post 2). And hence it will never work.

I think you may have misread my post (post 2), Arnie? Or maybe I didn't express myself clearly. I think any gangster in government who steals from their electorate should be brought to book. Not necessarily by the UN. In the case of the USA, it will never happen, hence my comments on it being impractical. OK?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

"Perhaps it could be called GTMB ( Get The Money Back ). Others might then be deterred, and the population helped in alternate ways. Do posters think that the Swiss Banks etc ( who presumably contain the funds ) could be compelled to hand them over, after a Security Council Resolution?"

I strongly doubt Swiss banks could or would be persuaded to do anything. Switzerland's banks promise complete confidentiality and security to their clients which is why they are the favourite of kleptocratic dictators. It's also not just dictators who use them and any attempt by any international body to force the Swiss banks to open their vaults would be thwarted at the first hurdle - far, far too many vested interests to deal with.

"We could all make a list of the dictators involved. The first name on mine would be Robert Mugabe. Surely his millions are not in Zimbabwean Dollars!. A colleague told me yesterday that he had read somewhere that Ayatollah Khomeni was worth about £2million - if thats true what does he need it for?"

I doubt they're the worst. It's commonplace for dictators of poor countries to, to all extents and purposes, steal huge amounts of the nation's GDP and hide it in a Swiss account where it can't be touched. This caused some controversy when the policy of increasing aid/dropping third world dept was discussed last year. Some critics (correctly) claim that corrupt governments (not even necessarily dictatorships) will invariably take the money meant for development and spend it on a fleet of new 4x4s and there's nothing anyone can actually do to stop them. Proponents argue that even though this is the case, some of the money inevitably finds its way through to where it's needed thanks to a trickle-down and, even though most of it is denied through corruption, its better than the nothing that would result otherwise.

Ahh, my mistake, I thought we were still on topic.

Morning Arnie,

I get the impression that you misunderstood my post which started this thread.

As was said subsequently, I was looking for a way to get the Swiss Banks 'forced' to open the accounts of the likes of Mugabe ( and worse)who have plundered their countries, and in some cases purloined the funds sent by external donor countries.

In the UK we have the PACE act which allows the judicial system to sequester the assetts of convicted criminals and I gather from Blues Shark that this can include short term confiscation,( until you can prove the £5,000 in your glove box was yours! ).

I chose the UN as the possible agent in this, since the Security Council has the ability to impose sanctions on countries, and I reckon we could ask the UN to ban trade in chocolate, cuckoo clocks, or whatever else the Swiss export - chemicals and Swiss Army Knives inc. - I'll even send mine back! )if it could bring the downfall of a target list.

BTW , I note that nobody has corrected my understanding that Ayatollah Khomeni is worth a cool £ 2,000,000.

Novo

I would be very surprised if Khomeini wasn't worth at least that, given his leading role in an oil rich theocracy.

sprout

You point is made Sprout, but he would (IMHO ) be a better spiritual leader if he built a few schools, or a hosptal or two for the Iranian people, with his 'loot'

But then, I am always hoping to fing 'good' in people - largely against the odds on occasion.

Novo

P-C: >I think you may have misread my post (post 2), Arnie?<

Par for the course - misreading and borderline trolling are his specialities. Don't cast your pearls before swine, P-C

BTW < I have just been corrected...

Apparently the Ayatollah Khomeni is worth £ 2 BILLION !!!!!!

He COULD do a lot of good with that couldn't he.? Starting with schools perhaps.

Novo

"Par for the course - misreading and borderline trolling are his specialities. Don't cast your pearls before swine, P-C"

Well then Jack, yours would be misinformation and illogic. I'll take mine, you can keep yours.

Ahh Novo, I guess I was confused by this statement from the 1st sentence:

"I wonder if it possible for the UN to consider, then implement,"

Since it was so prominent in the first post of the thread, I thought it actually was part of your plan. And since you never mentioned anything contrary to this (i.e. another organization), I was just plain confused. My bad!

>Well then Jack, yours would be misinformation and illogic. I'll take mine, you can keep yours.<

Suits me

"As was said subsequently, I was looking for a way to get the Swiss Banks 'forced' to open the accounts of the likes of Mugabe ( and worse)who have plundered their countries, and in some cases purloined the funds sent by external donor countries."

Is there a reason you've singled Mugabe out? Mugabe's list of political crimes seems extensive but I don't recall him being accused of syphoning-off Zimbabwe's wealth (indeed, the recent collapse of the Zimbabwean economy was blamed on his increasingly-populist stunts like the "land repatriation" rather than kleptocracy). In Africa, a much better example of kleptocracy was the recently-departed Nigerian military junta lead by the late Sani Abacha which stole millions, if not billions, and got away with it by colluding with Western oil interests who had no reason to see the Abacha junta fall.


"BTW , I note that nobody has corrected my understanding that Ayatollah Khomeni is worth a cool £ 2,000,000."

Surely "was" as Khomani is dead. More to the point, in Iran the leader being worth £2m is hardly shocking. Iran is third-world but it's not poor and a kleptocrat could make himself a considerably-greater fortune in such a country. Khomeni's crimes, and the crimes of the faux-"islamic democracy" he forced on Iran in the wake of the revolution are extensive but I've never heard them seriously accused of kleptocracy before.

<>

If only that were true

A large proportion of "aid" is actually loans. The lenders expect to be paid back even when most of the said loans have been pilfered by the dictators in question. Leaving the ordinary people with a massive debt, rather than just nothing.

Same goes for countries that run up a National Debt of $200+ billion to finance tax cuts.

Noggin