h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Just wanted to say that this thread has given me a great discussion topic for one of my classes today!


az

Would that be organ donation, or the serious improvement in Spanish road safety?

Thing is, I have a student who has an oral exam next month and apparently they just pick a topic out of a hat and she has to talk about it for 15 minutes with another student. So we've been trying to talk about absolutely everything we can think of and I really have been using some hootoo threads for ideas.

az

What about selling your organs while still alive, would you support a legalization of that?

Haven't ever read Coma then, Xanatic?

az

Can't say I have. What I mean is what if I had a tissue sample taken that showed I was compatible with a millionaire in need of a new kidney, should I be allowed to sell it?

>>"What I mean is what if I had a tissue sample taken that showed I was compatible with a millionaire in need of a new kidney, should I be allowed to sell it?"

I guess it depends how likely you are to be being 'exploited', but that's a highly subjective judgement, even in a single case.

If you *gave* a kidney to save their life, I can't see a moral problem with them giving a voluntary gift to you afterwards, but where there is any kind of contract, it does get somewhat murkier.
Even where you have any kind of expectation of a gift but no contract, if the topic of money hasn't been mentioned, you could well be disapointed with what you end up recieving even if the giver considers it a generous amount.

In a way, the less you need the money, the less possible problem there is, but then it's not always easy to measure your 'need'.
You could be poor, but happy with low financial expectations of life.
You could be well-off, but obsessed with getting as rich as you possibly can.

Well the vast vast majority of deaths aren't suitable for organ donation, for organ donation someone has to die on the intensive care unit, in a certain way (brain first), at a certain age. This is very uncommon.

I work in a medium sized hospital, and on any particular day when I have a cause to fill in a death certificate there are likely to be 4 - 20 certificates from the night waiting to be filled in the 'General Office*'I've never seen more than 1 from ITU, usually there are none.

6 out of 10 of relatives asked on ITU do consent, which is a fairly high number, nearly all relatives are asked, which is also good.

An opt out system would cause a lot of distress to relatives, after all when some is brain dead there heart is still beating, (albeit artifically supported). It stops beating when the heart is removed by a friendly transplant surgoen. It's a bit weird watcing it, there's a heart tracing on the machine that just disappears.

If a realtive isn't comfortable with that, I'm not going to force it on them, I'm not going to hurt the feelings of the living to please the no longer living.

Incidently the transplant team can never ever be involved in the decsions of the treatment of patients on ITU.
*'General' meaning the office that deals with death certificates and car parking permints, it seems an odd combination, but they do them both very well.

>>"If a realtive isn't comfortable with that, I'm not going to force it on them, I'm not going to hurt the feelings of the living to please the no longer living."

Wouldn't it be more to please the anonymous could-live-a-little-longer?
Would you feel Ok with ignoring relatives in the situation where someone had made it clear that they didn't *want* their relatives (or particular relatives) to be involved in the decision - if there was a 'hard' opt-in list, would that make it easier to say "I'm sorry, but they decided they wanted their organs donated"?

Isn't it more a case of hurting the feelings of the living in order to please the not-living-for-much-longer-unless-they-get-a-new-part?

Must reiterate to my family that if I go in a way that means I can't be used for spare parts then medical students are welcome to have me to practise on - and if some vital part of me can be used in an extrememly poor taste practical joke then so much the better

Have you signed up for organ donation, kelli? Has anyone else here?

I'm still trying to find a way of doing it in Seville - will ask some doctor friends of mine.


az

Yes I have, come to think of it, I'm not sure I've told them my name has changed - best go find the linky and update my records...

But I don't know how to sign up for donating my body to science should it not be suitable for organ donation.

Before I graduated I was in favour of an opt out system, but the pain to people who don't consent.

I do wonder how long it will last in practice. Lets face it the whole Alder Hey organ retention scandle, where parents objected to the retention of there babies organs against their will. If we had one story where 'my Mother hated the very idea of organ donation but got ill before she filled in the form, and they took her heart out whilst it was still beating.

The medical proffession requires brain death to be an adequate diagnosis of death - however there are people who feel very strongly that you are alive as long as your heart is beating. I don't think you can force these people to have their organs removed when they are, to them still alive.

It's a selfish thing, but when you're looking after someone who's dying you are effectivly looking after there family as well. By the time the death occurs you've been on a journey together. The more they visit the closer you get to them. The pain the relatives are going through are in front of you, the pain the people who are waiting for organs is going through is in the Transplant Centre, 10 miles away.

If the relatives just turned up at the end of things and said
'ok he's dead, don't cut his body up, and by the way can we have the death certificate tomorrow so we can collect the inhertence;* I'd be ok saying

'well that's what he wanted so you can sod off, and you can pick up the death certificate tomorrow from General Office at 12.40 pm if I've got around to filling it in by then, here's a leaflet on how to register a death'**

However if the relatives had visited every day, and were obviously very close to the deceased, then I would take their feelings into account.

The logic would go:

We all want to do what she would have wanted.

He said that he wanted to donate his organs.

His family are very upset by this.

If he knew that his wish to donate his organs would upset his family this much then would he still do it?

*or similar words to that effect.
** Or similar words to that effect.

>>"...where parents objected to the retention of there babies organs against their will"

I thought it was the 'without their knowledge' aspect that was the greatest issue in that case.

I believe that only a few cases really were without consent. Others had signed some sort of consent form without properly understanding the implications. 'Tissue' to some people might be a few cells, to others a whole organ. A lack of adequate counselling & clearly written forms perhaps?

What a fascinating topic!! I'll just stick my oar in with a few comments...

I don't believe that organ donation should ever be an "opt out" system, for the reason that there are always people who never seem to "get the memo", and it might not be something they would want. It should always be a voluntary "opt in". The deceased wishes must be carried out, not the family's. By the same token, the family must know what a person's wishes are before hand! My husband had wanted to be a donor, and I notified the hospital of this at the time of his death. His corneas were all that could be used, but it means someone sees now because of his generosity.

As for donating blood or agreeing to be a donor to get on the list for an organ, I think this is somewhat petty. Organs should go to the person in need who is the closest match, in order that the precious gift is not wasted. I have been diabetic for almost 3 decades, and I doubt anyone would be able to use my organs, although I am considering medical school donation, as someone with my health history would add to the knowledge base about my diseases. My parents were regular blood donors, but I was very disappointed to find out that I'm not able to donate blood because of the medications I have taken for so long.

Very recently, I had a heart attack, and was told that if my leg veins were found to be unsuitable, they would use cadaver veins instead. I know this will sound weird, but I was a bit creeped out by that, and was happy to find they didn't need them!!!

If we are really serious about upping the numbers of people willing to donate, we have to make a more concerted effort at public outreach. We have public service announcements about stopping smoking, not taking drugs, and not drinking and driving all for public safety's sake -- why not more information about organ donation?

Just my .

SC

Good points, SpaceCadette!

When my brother died, the question never arose, because of the way he died... I have told my sons that I wish to be a donor, if that's possible - if anything is usable. One of them has told me the same.. so it's possible, and the question is often in the news here.

I too would like to question whether organ donation is some sort of moral necessity. The idea that it is seems to arise from the belief that death is somehow avoidable and therefore has to be avoided whenever possible. Sorry to say it isn't. All that we can do is delay it. So I really don't feel any moral necessity to donate my organs for such a transitory relief. But my main problem with the idea is the utilitarian way in which it regards the human being. After all the body is all that is left of a dead person and it was always treated with reverence. Think of the risks that people still take to recover a dead body and give it a proper burial. This seems to me correct- although only intuitively I must admit. If we are going down the utilitarian route of using bits and pieces for surgery where do we stop? What is wrong with cannibalism? If that risks spreading disease one might at least mince up human bodies for dog food rather than just wasting them.

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"Soylent Green" anybody? Perhaps with a nice chianti?

Noggin