h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

If there are fixed and unavoidable extra charges for a particular flight, then it really is misleading to advertise fares that don't include them. A cafe that levied an extra compulsory charge for the use of a plate and an inflated charge ostensibly to contribute to their employer's liability insurance would be considered to be at least being a bit sly.

It also seems pretty dishonest to levy a charge supposedly for one reason if the charge is one that one makes a significant profit on. An optional baggage charge is one thing - one could argue that it's simply how they break down their costs between pasengers with luggage and those without, but *if* they are charging far more for insurance than insurance costs, whilst trying to give the impression that insurance is something out of their hands, it would seem a bit off.

<> (Blues)

Not at all, and I don't think anyone suggested such a thing.

<> (Ben)

Yeah, it seems where they fall down is with international flights. And then they fall down big time.


az

I don't think the problem can only be attributed to Ryanair. All the carriers operate in unethical ways at times. True, the pricing fiasco needs to be addressed. B&Q wouldn't get away with pricemarking a lawnmower at £14.99 and then adding £79.99 in 'additionals' at the checkout. The price advertised should be indicative of the price normally paid. Every business has operating costs and these should be included in the quoted price.

I fly regularly. My last trip was offloaded to another carrier who flew to a different destination and then bussed the passengeres to the correct airport. Why? Not because the plane was tech or delayed, but because the original carrier didn't have enough passengers. A refund was not an option because the carrier had fulfilled its obligations, ie, transportation from one destination to another. But it wasn't what I'd booked or paid for.

I've heard of passengers arriving late at check-in to be told their seat is taken. Fair enough, if you are late, you should be denied boarding. The seat you paid for, however, should fly empty, not be sold on to make another few quid for the airline.

I fail to see why the airlines have been allowed to operate in this way, apparently unchecked.

>If there are fixed and unavoidable extra charges for a particular flight, then it really is misleading to advertise fares that don't include them. A cafe that levied an extra compulsory charge for the use of a plate and an inflated charge ostensibly to contribute to their employer's liability insurance would be considered to be at least being a bit sly.<

Interesting analogy. Anybody whose used a credit card in a restaurant recently will know that the little magic box will ask if you want to put your gratuity on the bill. I'll bet most of us at one time or another have said 'yes'.

Well, you've been done and you've cheated the staff. That money will go directly to subsidise the wages bill.

So business slyness goes on all over the place. Living as we do in a society that appears to have no real interest in protecting the consumer from such behaviour, it's up to us to protect ourselves.

As a former BA employee, can I just point out that Ryanair's adverts say 'plus taxes & charges' etc because the Advertising Standards people told them off for *not* doing it? Also, most of the taxes and charges are levied by the airports and govts of the countries they fly in and out of, and really have nothing to do with the airlines themselves.

BA and most other full-cost airlines have fuel surcharges, so what's the difference with Ryanair's insurance surcharge? One thing about full-cost carriers is , IIRC, that they have a legal obligation to get you from A to B. I don't know how Ryanair get round this. The thing that gets me is, the lowest BA fare (inc taxes, natch) would maybe be £10 more than a Ryanair flight. This doesn't include the price of food onboard, being able to get a particular seat pre-boarding, not being 50 miles from the destination, the extra time needed for check-in and so on. Taking all these factors into account, then there probably wouldn't be much of a difference at all. You get what you pay for, in the end.

And on the taxes thing, airlines are exempt on fuel taxes *and* VAT because of a treaty in 1948 which wanted to give a boost to a developing, hi-tech industry whose environmental costs were either unknown or ignored. They're here to stay, so let's be a bit more grown up about them and stop subsidising the most environmentally damaging transport on the planet, eh?

<>

I went standby on a BA flight from heathrow to Toronto once. It was oversold by 36, and I was among 6 or 7 staff who got on. Airlines overbook every flight because they *know* some people won't show up. If you go into an internet cafe, book an hour and leave after 10 minutes, should the terminal be left idle for the rest of the hour (just wanted to add another analogy)?

<> (DDD)

Except that one of the reasons airlines require you to arrive hours before your flight leaves is to give them the opportunity to sell your seat again. And of course they do.

I got a bonus from this particular malpractice once when a connecting flight from Madrid to Paris was delayed - had ten minutes to race through Charles De Gaulle to get to my connecting plane. Found out my economy seat had been sold again so - woohoo - ended up in First Class all the way to Toronto. Even got .

But yes, it's a disgusting practice. Though I still don't know why arriving late should mean you lose your place. And these days it's just crazy - you have to show up two hours before your flight leaves? That is ALL ABOUT the airlines feeling justified in selling your seat again, even if you've confirmed it the previous day and maybe got stuck in traffic on the way to the airport.

az

Frankly, overbooking should be illegal. They are re-selling seats 'on spec' and not saying to their customers that this is the case. Yes, it's different for people who agree to 'standby' conditions. But why is overbooking allowed? And that's a serious question.


az

Having flown into and across the States in the last 18 months, I can assure you that that 2 hours is the minimum sensible time you need to get everybody through the security checks. In fact boarding at Vegas it was more like 2 1/2.

<> az

No idea bout Ryanair, but BA didn't. If a flight had 200 seats on it, depending on the route they'd sell between 205-240. Almost always, everyone who showed up would get on the flight. I'd imagine that overbooking is allowed precisely because of this, although I've no idea about the legalities. (Full-cost) airlines would probably go bankrupt if they didn't overbook, or just charge *much* higher prices.

The EU brought some kind of compensation scheme in recently, so this might change.


When people didn't get on, basically they'd have an auction. 'Who'll take £50 to get on the next flight? £100?' If I was going on holiday, I'd have done it for £100, if I only had to wait a few hours.

<< If you go into an internet cafe, book an hour and leave after 10 minutes, should the terminal be left idle for the rest of the hour?>>

That's a slightly different situation. You've used a portion of the service you paid for and then decided not to use the rest. There is an argument that the terminal should stand idle in case you return, though.

With regards check-in, if you were late and the cut-off point has passed, how come other passengers get to take advantage of your seat? They must have checked-in after the cut-off point to ensure that you a) hadn't arrived and b) that the seat was now available. If the operators can check in passengers and comfortably handle them later than the advertised closing time, then quite obviously they are taking advantage of the situation.

Deep Doo Doo, i think we're at cross-purposes here. I don't think airlines do sell seats after check-in closes. In fact, I'm 100% certain that all the full-cost carriers I've flown on don't, although I can't speak for the low-cost carriers (but I doubt it).

As I posted, airlines will sell more seats for a flight than are on the plane, on the basis that some people won't turn up.

<< << If you go into an internet cafe, book an hour and leave after 10 minutes, should the terminal be left idle for the rest of the hour?>>

That's a slightly different situation. You've used a portion of the service you paid for and then decided not to use the rest. There is an argument that the terminal should stand idle in case you return, though.>>

What if it's the return flight?

<> (pedro)

You can't be serious. How do you think 'stand-by' works?

<>

Which is actually worse I think. They are *counting* on X-amount of people not showing up, so what happens when they all show up on time? People who have paid full-fare for their flights get bumped. And what happens when someone gets delayed because of an accident or construction on the motorway - they should just lose their seat because they didn't think to get to the airport FIVE hours ahead of their flight, just in case?

You buy a ticket, you get a seat. Except you don't. How is this even remotely ethical?

What the hell is the point of making a reservation if your place isn't actually reserved? Otherwise everyone would fly stand-by. Which it looks like they often do without realising it.


az

<>

With most airlines, they are not the ones who are doing the check-in. It's the airline's handling agent in the airport that is deciding the times for check-in etc. If someone does not turn up in time for check-in, and the flight is not overbooked, then the handling agents look at their list of folks who are on stand-by and give those seats away there and then. Most airlines have a very small price for standby seats and the handling agent gets the rest of the fare the standbys have paid. So the airlines don't tend to sell after check-in closes, but the handling agents certainly do.

If you turn up late for check in, then your seat has either been overbooked anyway, and as last to check in, you won't get a seat, or it has been sold to a standby.

Morals and ethics aside, why not re-sell seats? Would you not do everything you could to maximise your business profits?

>> Yeah, it seems where they fall down is with international flights.

Um. Dublin to Leeds/Bradford *is* international.

Technically, Ben, but distance-wise it isn't.

az

<>

Yeah, but they they re-sell the seats at the point of reservation, in terms of double-booking. That can't be right.

az

Surely the complexities in international air travel are around things like legal differences and local safety regulations, managing a multinational workforce, aligning with local employment law, stuff like that, rather than just how many miles in the air?

It's clear that some people like Ryanair and some people don;t like them. My ex rated them above BA and the other national carriers, and we are talking about someone doing 40-80 flights per year for over a decade or so.

I've never flown with them. The only reason I don't use EasyJet is that I don't live anywhere near Stansted.

Ben

<> (Ben)

Between Bradford and Dublin? No doubt some of that stuff comes into it but for very short-haul flights like that, probably mostly used by commuters, I wonder if this comes into play much. They possibly also use smaller and cheaper-to-run aircraft. Just guessing.

az

Correct me if I'm wrong but once a flight is *closed* they can't put *anybody* on as things like weight and fuel ratios are fixed at that point?

Or is that just a load of horse puckey they trot out on Airline for the gullible passengers?