A Conversation for The Tyburn Tree, Hyde Park, London, UK

On the wagon

Post 1

NAITA (Join ViTAL - A1014625)

I'd like to see a source for this etymology, since it looks very much like one of the many folk-etymologies that the internet have made ubiquitous. This theory fails to mention that 'on the wagon' originaly was 'on the water wagon', which wouldn't make sense if it was derived from the mentioned practice.
My favourite source on all things etymological has this to say on the topic: http://www.word-detective.com/012000.html#wagon

It would be a shame if H2G2 was to promote funny anectdotes as facts without any supporting evidence. Finding the actual history of words and phrases is already completely hopeless since the 'net perpetuates the funny instead of the factual.

smiley - devil


On the wagon

Post 2

Wand'rin star

If legend goes back as far as this, it's probably equally as good as any more modern thinking on the subject. Folk memory on many things is as good as written history (I think, anyway)smiley - starsmiley - star


On the wagon

Post 3

Mina

I came across this explanation on many of the books that I used for my research for this entry (some of which are older than the lenghth of time internet has been in common use), plus someone in the office had also heard it. I didn't find it on the internet.

While I agree that anything can be found on the internet if you look hard enough, I don't agree that this theory has no supporting evidence to back it up.

I've had a look at that website, and by the look of it, that information is dated later than mine. Mine is related to Henry I and his wife, which seems earlier than the details on that site. Nobody uses the phrase 'water wagon' anymore, so while those details might be correct, I am talking about an older phrase.

At the end of the day, it's only a theory.


On the wagon

Post 4

NAITA (Join ViTAL - A1014625)

If you have some decent sources I will of course admit defeat. smiley - smiley I have to disagree with Wand'rin Star though. Few of the legends that are passed around are actually old. They just describe historic events, but are actually of recent invention, and are passed around and have been written down, sometime this last century, because they are 'neat'.
I still suspect this theory of 'on the wagon' is of that type. Yes, my quote is from the net, but it's the web version of a newspaper column by an etymologist, who does research his claims. Even if it's only looking them up in the OED. Also the only other etymologies I've been able to find (on the net since I'm short an etymologic dictionary) repeat this and claim that Brits should be saying 'on the water cart'. So until someone can show me a written source predating the 19th century for the funny, but illogical, etymology, I'll stick with the version that has both logic and evidence on its side. smiley - winkeye

smiley - devil


On the wagon

Post 5

Mina

I had a chat with Abi about this yesterday, and we agreed that it was likely a recent saying attributed to old events, but the lack of any proof either way means that I am happy to keep my theory in the entry. That you have posted another theory to the entry means that an readers can make up their own minds. smiley - smiley
Thanks for reading it anyway. smiley - biggrin

The oldest books I have about London come from the 1890s, but I don't think it was in those. I'll have another look next time I'm reading them, just to make sure my memory isn't wrong.


On the wagon

Post 6

NAITA (Join ViTAL - A1014625)

I live a sad, little life and reading entries and catching mistakes, perceived or real, makes my day. smiley - winkeye And I agree, me posting a different theory does make it justifiable to keep the other one in the entry (which, after all isn't about the etymology of 'on the wagon'. And you posting that you and Abi agree it is likely a recent saying makes me the winner. smiley - biggrin
*Does the pathetic pedant victory dance* smiley - devil


On the wagon

Post 7

Wand'rin star

The OED and most other etymological dictionaries of the English language record the first written mention that they can find. This leads to Shakespeare supposedly having invented thousands of words.
As an old pedant myself, I'm sticking to my guns. smiley - starsmiley - star


On the wagon

Post 8

NAITA (Join ViTAL - A1014625)

Any decent scientist will realize that so many etymologies go back to Shakespeare because he's got a big chunk of fairly old writings. 'First written mention' doesn't equal 'origin'. I just means 'oldest known root'.


On the wagon

Post 9

Wand'rin star

What I'm trying to say is that many. many words and phrases existed long before anyone thought to write them down. Some folk etymologies (like the names of flowers) are as true as what scholars think of things that only got written down in the last couple of hundred yearssmiley - starsmiley - star


On the wagon

Post 10

NAITA (Join ViTAL - A1014625)

And some folk etymologies have been invented lately. This one for 'on the wagon' is a likely candidate. Its the kind of story that is complicated and fun enough to get passed around today. But for it to be true you have to believe people back then would start using 'on the wagon' as an expression for giving up drink (which few people did) based on the practice of giving soon to be hanged men a last pint. And you have to either believe someone could deduce this today, or that it was passed along in oral tradition. Etymologies alone are rarely passed along like that. "How the brimblebrumble-flower got its name" is a story that would be passed along. "Why they say 'on the wagon' about someone who has given up drink" is something that likely wouldn't. Common interrest in etymology is a relatively recent thing.


On the wagon

Post 11

Wand'rin star

How do you know that? Just because people couldn't read, it doesn't mean they weren't interested in word and phrase origins. Most of Shakespeare's audience was illiterate, but they seem to have appreciated (very weak) puns smiley - starsmiley - star


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