This is the Message Centre for paulie

bad penny turning up

Post 1

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

Hello paulie,
just dropping by to say hello, here under the old nickname, which btw i got from my Irish friends because i always kept good drink in the house, which i still do, so i keep the name ... in case you ever wondered smiley - winkeye
I'll be patiently watching your keeping promises place, until you get around to do something on it, and could you give me the url of your animal site again?


well I did wonder

Post 2

paulie

and now I know. well good drink can certainly be a good thing at times, in moderation I suppose. Hi there Delicia, good to see you. the url for the animal site is americananimalkillers.com. I have to confess I haven't done anything new with it at all lately. Of course I have tons of ideas, with new ones added every day. It's just getting those ideas out of my head and into some medium I can share with the world that presents the problem. Some day soon I am going to take a few days off from work and engage in what I like to think of as social awareness activity. And of course I want to make a tribute to Lil, who opened my eyes to so many new things, to put at the keeping-promises site. I did make a promise to her, that I would not forget the new history that I learned from her. And I won't, I only hope wherever she is she still has that faith in me that I found so astounding from someone who has been mistreated as she has by my own people. I think when I get some of that illusive "free" time I will try to do a piece on the Lilith. I did some research on it at one time and it's uncanny how relevant it all is to Lil and how she effects people.


well I did wonder

Post 3

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

and not only decent drink, but also weird music and down to earth food...
And you are as good as in the Edited Guide! smiley - bubblysmiley - bubblysmiley - bubbly


well I did wonder

Post 4

paulie

I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch or anything, but it is looking like it. I wonder if you can screw up at this point and get the thing yanked? If there is a way I will probably find it. It's kind of peculiar really, that I feel such a drive to get this thing in there. I guess I feel like it will attract more attention in the "edited guide". Wouldn't that be a great thing, if people started really thinking and talking about this? smiley - smiley


well I did wonder

Post 5

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

i don't think anything can go wrong now, really i don't. Looking forward to the discussion, i am!


well I did wonder

Post 6

ChiKiSpirit -- A1008604

Just popped in to say hello. I've been reading and digesting what you've been saying about Mount Rushmore. I'm English and white. I agree with what you are saying. My eyes have certainly been opened since I arrived here on h2g2 and am finding it quite difficult to take in what everyone has to say. It's good to see an American point of view. This is a view that is not much publicised in the UK.
smiley - smiley ChiKi


well I did wonder

Post 7

paulie

thank you ChiKi for you comments. I hope the interest in this topic doesn't completely die out before we hear from a sub editor. I knew it took a while to do these things but I expected to hear something by now.


well I did wonder

Post 8

ChiKiSpirit -- A1008604

Have you written any articles on the subject? Rather than discussing this amongst your friends maybe you should get it out in the open for everyone to see?
smiley - biggrin
ChiKi


articles where?

Post 9

paulie

that's what I was trying to do here is get it out for more people to know about it. If you know of some other place I might get an article published on the subject, I would certainly be willing to give it a try. I think what is most needed is just plain old discussion. It's amazing how many people don't know even the basic details about what has gone on in our country all the years before, not to mention right now at the moment.


articles where?

Post 10

ChiKiSpirit -- A1008604

You could try writing your article and submitting it to Peer Review. The people who do the reviewing are very helpful, and friendly, and will let you explain your point of view.
ChiKi


articles where?

Post 11

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

Hello paulie, i see you finally got your keeping-promises site going smiley - ok


articles where?

Post 12

paulie

hey DC, somewhat. I really need to spend some time building it up a little more though. Time is just one of those things there is never enough of. Would you consider writing some sort of piece for the site? I think you would have a rather unique perspective on the whole thing.


articles where?

Post 13

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

Hi Pauline, good to hear from you. Well yes, i have my very own ideas about the whole thing, as you maybe know by now, and i've arrived at them by (still) doing a lot of thinking. So I might try to give the perspective of one of those whose ancestors stayed at home.
But i'm not sure. You see, even before i start, i know already all the comments i can expect. And to spend a lot of time writing something out, just to have it disqualified beforehand, on the grounds that it doesn't agree completely and therefore is stupid, to have it deliberately misinterpreted, or at best have a lot of the eversame stereotypes thrown at it, that give me the feeling that nobody even bothered to really read what i said, is, well, a waste of time, which i don't have lots of either.
If i sound disgruntled, that's right, i am. Took a long time, but now I've just finished a rather bad discussion, which was for me summing up all the previous discussions in a way that in consequence i have taken some time out from the whole issue, don't know yet for how long.
Of course my overall attitude has not changed, but i don't know if i want to get involved any more on any level, i may, and i may not. I think what you're doing is very brave and generous in more than one way. You know that i've always admired that. If ever i meddled again, it would largely be due to you, and to one or two "Indians" elsewhere who have met me on eye level. In any case you would have to give me ... TIME.


articles where?

Post 14

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

Mind you, sometimes i wonder if there mightn't be a lot of things i don't take into consideration. I know the general historical facts, have talked to a lot Americans in the last three years thanks to internet communities, but i've never actually been to the US of America. So about three years ago there was that fairly old man(i don't know the tribe because he didn't tell me and i didn't ask, we were just talking casually about life in general), homely chap, very peaceful, and once he said that he was he was already glad when walking along the road, and nobody would throw empty drink cans at him from the passing car.
I still haven't got about my outrage.
Now, however much i might dislike a whole set of people (which i think is a stupid attitude anyway, well i needn't go on to you about that) but if something like that is possible and the man has had that sort of experiences on a daily basis, then it's a miracle and wonder he hasn't turned into something nasty himself. Of course if he had, then he and me couldn't have talked.


articles where?

Post 15

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

Mind you, sometimes i wonder if there mightn't be a lot of things i don't take into consideration. I know the general historical facts, have talked to a lot Americans in the last three years thanks to internet communities, but i've never actually been to the US of America. So about three years ago there was that fairly old man (i don't know the tribe because he didn't tell me and i didn't ask, we were just talking casually about life in general), homely chap, very peaceful, and once he said that he was already glad when walking along the road, and nobody would throw empty drink cans at him from the passing car.
I still haven't got over my outrage.
Now, however much i might dislike a whole set of people (which i think is a stupid attitude anyway, well i needn't go on to you about that) but if something like that is possible and the man has had that sort of experiences on a daily basis, then it's a miracle and wonder he hasn't turned into something nasty himself. Of course if he had, then he and me couldn't have talked.


hey DC,

Post 16

paulie

sorry I am so long in replying. I have been to New York City and back. It was quite a trip too, I'll try to write up a little about it for my journal some day soon. Anyway I never saw much of the prejudice like Rita and Lil talked about. I live in TN and there are not a lot of visible Indian Tribes about. The ones that are are the Cherokee in the Smokies and if I understand correctly they have gone further toward assimilating than most tribes. They put on a show for tourist but you don't get much of an idea what they are really about. I can understand how attitudes like that would make people bitter though. Especially when you add to that the more tangible wrongs that were done to them. I guess whether they end up bitter or not just depends on the individual attitude. I do think that they would have a better chance of swaying public opinion without the bitterness. I guess you really can never know about stuff like that unless it happens to you. The only prejudice I have ever had to deal with was from being a woman. There has been a lot of that, but then too, it crosses all the racial barriers.


hey paulie

Post 17

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

Firstly tremendous congratters re your entry, it was even front page issue! And very good it is.
I agree, if some of the red people focussed on the land issue, and not so much on how inferior the "whites" are, they would be much farther along the way. Just take now the disappearing trust funds (i talk as one who looks across the Great Water, and has no first knowledge of any one specific case) but from here it looks one of the basest things one could perpetrate to rob a reservation indian on top of the history as it is.
I feel it's one of the great injustices that once people become victims at one stage of their history, they seem to turn into something very alike those who happen to have the upperhand at the time. I for one cannot see any difference of mindset between puritans, or white supremacists, and a sizable number of "red" people i've met on the net.
I can see perfectly what made them thus, but i can't talk to them for any length of time, anymore than i could to white supremacists, or black ones, i don't care what colour the supremacist is.

I have another serious problem now as a result of all this: I recently find it very hard to believe anything that is said about those cultures, because i've seen just too much twisted, selfserving argument lately. And i would really like to know, but i don't want anyone's egotistical myth and artificial constructs, i want to know how it really was/is. Oh yeah, and i would like to be able to take sides with the conviction that it was the right thing to do.



hey paulie

Post 18

paulie

thanks DC smiley - smiley

You know I think I have come to an important conclusion about all this. While it is important to have personal exposure to the issues and the people involved, maybe to create some sort of awakening, you really gotta deal with them on a much wider scale. If it weren't for Rita and Lil and of course Zee and Charlie and whoever else I might have left out, the issue even with all the sorted details would still seem disconnected from us somehow. And yet to attempt to correct the problems we have to move our focus away from those individuals and to the whole scope of the thing. If we look at any one of them exclusively we may only see a bitter person no matter how jusitfied. If we look at them all as a oppressed group, despite the invidivual bitterness, we will have to recognize the overall cause. And you have to keep in mind that emotions change with the wind. Everybody has their days when they are just not satisfied with their lot in life. It would be sad to write the whole cause off as sheer dis-satisfaction because our exposure to them consisted of a bitter individual who might be so much more but hasn't shared that side with us.

At any rate the fact that you are interested in the issue at all, and continue to be despite discouraging developments proves you to be a concientious inhabitant of the planet. There's no way any of us will ever be truly righteous in all of our dealings with our fellow human beings. We are after all only human. But to continue to strive for that has got to be among the greater characteristics of our species.


hey paulie

Post 19

Delicia - The world's acutest kitten

Well these issues have always interested me, Paulie. And i've had always had ample opportunity to educate myself on them. For one, in my GDR-days the Indian question (I'll use Indian as a general term because you do, so i reckon it can't be totally wrong) was proof par excellence for the iniquity of the class enemy, first and foremost the US of A. smiley - winkeye
Secondly, like i said, it interested me. So I didn't really need to be made aware of the issue, because i already knew many of the facts. Actually I was amazed to realise that apparently not everybody did. But the issue was more clearcut for me then, than it is now. What my acquaintance with the people at RCO has done for me, is that i have had to relativate my rigid stance on the subject, been forced to re-interprete some of the facts, and in the end developed an altogether different view of human history.
In consequence I no longer pass judgement on those "whites" who have left nothing but a tired "oh yeah" to say on the subject, or at best "well, can we leave the past behind and go on now, or do we have to wait until you are done repeating all our nastiest errors".
Not that it was RCO that set in motion this relativating process, that started earlier, in South Africa, where i worked for nearly two years. Talking about South Africa, here is an interesting article from the newspaper i used to take in there
http://www.witness.co.za/showcontent.asp?id=11780&action=full&catid=3
The ones who incidentally profit from my recent, i think more evenhanded, view of history are the West Germans btw., East German bars being now much safer for them, at least those that i frequent. smiley - biggrin. Seriously now, i had to revise my own attitudes towards certain groups of people, like men, or said West Germans, because when i saw some black or red people, i thought, oh for goodness sake, do i too come across like that? If so, that'll never lead anyone anywhere.
Now of course, as i have to come to understand the "oh yeah" attitude, i must be careful not to fall into it myself, or let myself be pushed into it.
It's just not easy!


hey paulie

Post 20

paulie

I finally got around to reading that article, and it was very interesting. I have said some of the same things to Lil and then recently to Rita too I believe. I mean it's very likely that I have Indian ancestery myself. In fact one branch of my family tree was leaning toward that heavily when I decided it didn't really matter that much. Why should I try to so hard to prove I came from the same place they did anyway? We all came from the same place and we're all going back there. That puts us on equal ground to me, but I suppose it's just not so simple for some people. I guess I have to thank my Mother in this as in so many things, in that she never taught me to hate. I think to love would be the natural human resonse, but so many people are almost subliminally taught hate all their lives, by example if no other way. My Mother loved everybody and I guess I just thought that was how it is supposed to be. Some people probably thought cause I was a girl, and lived in the projects, and had no daddy, it was unlikely I would ever amount to anything. My Mama told me though that I only had to choose want I wanted to be and go out and be that, no matter what anybody else said. I think everybody has that power myself, and sadly if Indians choose to be remain victims by cotinuing to focus only on the wrongs they have suffered and never on the positive actions they might take along with anybody else concerned, then that is what they will always be. To themselves and to the rest of the world.


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