This is the Message Centre for Mystrunner

If the tea tastes odd

Post 1

mitabubble

As a Californian do you really know how to make tea? See The Salmon of Doubt for instructions. BTW I don't uderstand what a proseletising Christian is doing on a site created by DNA, again see The Salmon of Doubt pp95-101. I think you do Douglas Adams memory a disservice. My message to all persons of religeous belief is this: grow up and start taking responsibility for your self.


If the tea tastes odd

Post 2

Mystrunner

Hehe, wow... lesse here.

I'm not a Californian. I live in (regrettably) Illinois.
I've already read and own salmon of doubt. Douglas Adams is one of my favorite authors, and I'm well aware of his religious views. I may not agree with them, but hey, live and let live.

If I'm doing DNA a disservice by using his website, well, I suppose that's your opinion.

As for my proselytizing, I can't help but wonder if you read all of my space... <>

If you want to contact all people of religious beliefs, I don't think this is the right place. Unless you're aiming that comment at me, in which case I'd like to ask why you consider me immature and how I don't take responsibility for myself?

All in all, I'm quite bemused by your spontanious and somewhat hostile post... do I know you?


If the tea tastes odd

Post 3

mitabubble

" I'd like to ask why you consider me immature and how I don't take responsibility for myself?"
What I mean is I don't need a book full of superstition and myth to do my thinking for me. I don't need god or santa clause to bribe or threaten me into being a good boy. To believe requires a leap of faith, it is asked by most religeons. Leave your brain at the door to the church. Let us (preachers evangelists etc) tell you what to think. Wouldn't be so bad if you'd leave the rest of us alone, eg interfernce in the classroom, gay marriage and cruisading wars to name a few. Take a look at your dopey President Born again Bush for a prime example of this stupidity.


If the tea tastes odd

Post 4

Mystrunner

Good for you, and I respect your opinion. I don't feel that it's superstition, and God's made my life all the better. If you don't believe that, again, that's your opinion.

I note on your space, you say "Religeon: devout Atheist (If I can respect others beliefs why can't they respect mine?)"

And yet here you are, openly attacking my faith. Isn't this kinda hypocritical? I don't care if you're atheist... why do you have to care if I'm a Christian? Can't you respect my beliefs like you claim in your space?


If the tea tastes odd

Post 5

xxx

well said, Myst. smiley - ok


If the tea tastes odd

Post 6

Galigan

Mitabubble, I have just come to see this conversation because I heard Myst saying elsewhere that he was being attacked because of this faith and I thought I'd see what was going on because the question of faith interests me. I am not a Christian, nor am I an atheist. I am open to all religious viewpoints, my best RL friend is an atheist and my best hootoo friend is a devout Christian, and I will not try to persuade people of my viewpoint because quite frankly I don't have one, but when I witness what seems to be an unprovoked attack on a Christian for his faith (I could be wrong on this point, I am unfamiliar with the background between you and Myst) I am rather angered that someone has the balls to claim not only that someone is wrong but that they are 'doing someone a disservice' by being here.

Now, I am not one to charge headlong into an argument without having something to say, so I checked your entry on belief and bellringing, which, while being insightful and showing a background knowledge of religion, is basically an attack. Nothing more. I picked up on one particular line though,
"Most athiests arrive at their position from a path of knowledge not by taking a leap of faith to a belief."
Actually, most atheists are so because they lack the strength of mind to be able to take the leap of faith. Many people do, the religious people are just the ones who consider themselves to have been 'caught' mid leap (caught as in catch a falling object). Atheists tend normally to be simple people too lasy to take an actual standpoint on religous issues and when questioned fail miserably in argument. There are notable exceptions, Douglas Adams being one of them. My conclusion to this point is that in fact, most athiests arrive at their position through apathy.

Now that the background's out of the way lets get onto what you actually said shall we? Firstly you said Myst was doing Douglas Adams a disservice by being here. My response to this is that you obviously completely got the wrong end of the argument. Douglas Adams' vision for this sight was to create an earth version of the guide that would share information and experiences. He in no way said that there should be a sign saying 'leave all religions at the door' of the front page. If he were alive today he wouldn't have a problem with religious people being on here as long as they didn't try to convert him, and Myst makes it very clear on his space that he will only talk about religion if someone is willing to listen, meaning no attempted 'saving' or annoying 'you're going to hell!' proclimations.

"What I mean is I don't need a book full of superstition and myth to do my thinking for me."
You don't, but maybe some people do. Not for it to do their thinking for them but to help guide them to becoming better people, and if they believe they get more than that, an afterlife in heaven and all that stuff, they what business is it of yours to tell them otherwise? A vision like that will make someone happy and more contented, telling them they're wrong will do little good in a situation like this.

"I don't need god or santa clause to bribe or threaten me into being a good boy."
Santa Claus is not in the bible and has nothing to do with religion. He is based on St. Nicholas who was a nice man who gave presents to homeless children on christmas time. The modern 'santa' is a result of marketing and moneymaking and deserves no place in a debate about *actual* religion.

"To believe requires a leap of faith, it is asked by most religeons" (love the grammar and spelling in that one)
Why are you unable to make a leap of faith? What is it to you if others do? To each his own. People who can't make that leap probably don't belong in religions anyway and normally are the type of people more comfortable without them. That doesn't mean that for the few who can in this modern age that they are doing something weird.

"Leave your brain at the door to the church. Let us (preachers evangelists etc) tell you what to think."
Being awfully pedantic, I'm going to argue this: they don't actually tell people what to think but what to believe. Different things. Anyway, pedanticness aside, if you don't like it then don't go to church. Many people who do go listen to the message and benefit from that. People like you get too hung up on technicalities to see the message. Of course Jesus wasn't born of a literal virgin, of course you can't walk on water, of course dead people can't rise again. None of it is possible in the minds of many people but that doesn't stop the *story* (emphasis on that) having meaning and message. It's about belief which superseeds technicalities.

"Wouldn't be so bad if you'd leave the rest of us alone, eg interfernce in the classroom, gay marriage and cruisading wars to name a few."
Admittedly I do agree with this point. Religions, when they interfeare with things like education and civil rights, do tend to get in the way, but that's not God's fault, that's the fault of the homophobic preachers and top dogs in the Vatican. Although I did feel that the Pope's speech about AIDS being a God-send rather insensitive, to employ a rather large euphamism.

"Take a look at your dopey President Born again Bush for a prime example of this stupidity."
Ok, Bush is an idiot. You can't use him in an argument against religion. That makes you as bad as him, because what he does is play on the beliefs of the Americans to gain popularity. Has he ever proclaimed to believe in God? Does anyone actually properly know much about Bush?

Myst, hope you don't mind the intrusion, but as you can see I have a lot to say on this matter.

Now I invite a response from Mitabubble. Putting all civilised decorum and methods of argument aside, Bring it on! (sorry, I just really wanted to say that)


If the tea tastes odd

Post 7

Mystrunner

Galigan, your support is most welcome. I get somewhat riled at behavior like what our mutual companion, Mitabubbe, has displayed. I think we can all agree that hootoo isn't a place for religious displays of superiority, or places where religion should be an item of constant contrition.
To go out of your way, in your first week no less, to pick a fight with someone about their beliefs and the proper making of a good cuppa is disgusting.


If the tea tastes odd

Post 8

Galigan

No problem Myst. I rather dislike intolerance and regarding religions I find it sometimes quite rude, especially in this case. The word disgusting, I feel, is quite apt.


If the tea tastes odd

Post 9

mitabubble

Lani Gag says
“I will not try to persuade people of my viewpoint because quite frankly I don't have one”

For someone without a view point you take a lot of space to express it!

“belief and bell ringing, which, while being insightful and showing a background knowledge of religion, is basically an attack. Nothing more.“

Your point being? I thought I had included some amusing information. My point being that ill informed belief can have dangerous consequences. It certainly did for the bell ringers. Calling what I wrote “an attack” does not invalidate the information in it. So your "nothing more" accusation is weak.

“Actually, most atheists are so because they lack the strength of mind to be able to take the leap of faith.”

A leap of faith requires no strength of mind; it requires not using your mind at all!
No logic, no scientific rigor, no intellectual process other than the suspension of disbelief.

“Atheists tend normally to be simple people too lasy to take an actual standpoint on religous issues and when questioned fail miserably in argument”.

What a pathetic, sweeping generalization! (lasy? pedanticness? interfeare? superseeds? and you want to criticize my spelling and grammar!)
I take a stand point. I say God does not exist. I say give me proof, not a leap of faith.

“Santa Claus is not in the bible and has nothing to do with religion.”
Well gee whiz! Thanks for pointing that out for me.
What I was doing was comparing two fictitious characters God and Santa. Both are used paternalistically to keep people/children in line, be good and do as we tell you or no Heaven/Christmas presents.
No commercialism, and money making in modern churches? Get a grip! Take a look at any TV evangelist, or the property holdings of most established religions.

“Of course Jesus wasn't born of a literal virgin, of course you can't walk on water, and of course dead people can't rise again. None of it is possible in the minds of many people but that doesn't stop the *story* (emphasis on that) having meaning and message. It's about belief which superseeds technicalities.”
Blasphemer! So now you pick and choose as to what parts of the bible you think are real or not. Cut out the bits that are nonsensical but keep the bit about the man/being in the sky that created us all. Christian argument is so slippery, if technicalities are inconvenient then we dismiss them and go for "the greater meaning" what ever that is.

“Religions, when they interfeare with things like education and civil rights, do tend to get in the way, but that's not God's fault,”
Of course it’s not Gods fault. How can something that does not exist be at fault? But those who claim to represent him do use "his word" the Bible, to justify their interference.

"Ok, Bush is an idiot. You can't use him in an argument against religion. That makes you as bad as him, because what he does is play on the beliefs of the Americans to gain popularity."

So I'm as bad as Bush! Quite frankly I'm dumfounded by your line of logic there, but you don't seem to be very good at logical thought, do you?.
By the way Bush's claims to being born again are well documented, as are his use of the religious right in his campaign strategies. (BTW I haven't sent my nation into any illegal wars on the strength of a pack of lies, believing that God was on my side). So screw you! (sorry, I just really wanted to say that)

Please re-read Salmon of Doubt pp95 -101


If the tea tastes odd

Post 10

Galigan

Oh hi mitabubble, long time no speaky. Yeah my argument was rather patchy wasn't it? Well it was written when I was incredibly bored and a long time ago, and I no longer feel like trying to argue because we're both crap at it and all we do is pick apart bits of the others argument anyway.

My original posting was made because I disagreed with your unprovoked derogatory comment on someone else's faith and with the way you used Douglas Adams' view to justify your own. I'm not such a fan of religion myself anymore but I still don't think just telling someone they're dumb is a good idea.

And yeah my 'bring it on' was very childish, I appologise for that.


If the tea tastes odd

Post 11

Galigan

You know what, after re-reading the whole conversation again I'm going to flick a virtual 2 fingers at you mitabubble. Where the hell do you get off on coming in here and talking like that? I was wrong on a few accounts but you're are acting like a childish, rude, hypocritical waste of oxygen. Did you think you would look mature by making derogatory comments on someone else's faith? I wonder at what possible motivation you could have had when you proclaim what you do on your personal space about respect. I'm extremely tempted to descend into profanities but I don't want to be immature, or to have this posting to be modded. Feel free to reply because I'm actually rather interested to hear how you justify yourself, but note that I no longer care for your opinion on religious matters in general.


If the tea tastes odd

Post 12

Mystrunner

Yeah, please feel free to sod off if you don't like my religion.


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