h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Good Morning Everyone

And a wonderful day it is here - All I can see out my study window is blue sky, with the occasional squawk from a wattle bird adding to the serenity .... just spotted an olive whistler in a gum tree. There you go.

Wz, the plaits sound an excellent idea. I can see it now! What an impressive sight I shall be ... the selectors can't but give me the job for sheer entertainment value. I am actually teaching a seminar this weekend for Adult Education on the Vikings so am up on all things Nordic. About seventees people expected for four hours of Viking hijinks. All good clean fun!

Walter, sorry I missed you at the Big School the other day. I am rarely there these days ... working at home means no travelling time and thus getting up later than I would otherwise have to. Great holiday idea! You both need a reward after all this time studying and working at the same time. Do you plan to visit Olde England? Surely, taking the Beloved to Earls Colne would be a priority?

Must go. MY Beloved is unwell and requires some ministering. Stay well All.
Cheerio
Bran.

Good morning y'all

Sorry about this in advance. I think it's philosophy and I hoped never to have to subject my friends to the horrors of it. But here goes:

Wazungu, I didn't find your post on genetic selection confused. I think you stated the case. The subject matter is apt to be confusing and you just have to make the best analysis that you can. It's obvious that you've been considering the implications carefully and run into paradoxes. What we're trying to do is to be logical about something whose starting point is emotional or instinctive. It's difficult and it's not necessarily something we can do unless we acknowledge that our starting point isn't a logical foundation.

It's easy to be at cross purposes. We'd have to agree that whatever methods are employed, the ultimate aim for all of us engaged in this discussion is this: our planet should once again become an environment where all plant and animal species that could survive (without the interference of our species) would be able to do so in a natural way. What I mean is, that all the species on our planet should be free to follow their nature (including us as far as possible). Natural selection might select some for extinction from time to time but that wouldn't be because of anything our species had done to inflict a disadvantage on them. Does anyone disagree with that? If not, then I think our differences start leaking into the field of philosophy.

This is my starting point. To me, the most important thing is the individual, as I think I mentioned earlier. I'm not saying genes aren't interesting. They're very interesting but I don't think they have feelings. Case, you'd have a hard job convincing me a gene could feel - or think for that matter. You're welcome to try.

I have to come clean and point out that I'm a veggie and I adore animals - even animals that fail abysmally to be dogs (my favourites). So you know my starting point is very suspect straight away if you're planning to try to clobber me with logic. My starting point is emotion and (possibly) instinct. That doesn't mean that I think every creature has the right to live forever by the way - just in case you're under the impression that I don't live in the real world which is full of death and predators.

Having said that, you have to start somewhere and there is no logical basis for a thing being "important" if you don't first acknowledge that it has to be important to someone. Nothing is just important per se. If you say that species are important and individuals aren't (I know that's somewhat overstating what you actually said Case) then why are species important? The thought or feeling that a thing is important is experienced by an individual, not a gene or a species. By implication, if that individual is unimportant then their thoughts and feelings are unimportant too. That just won't do, will it? If there's a fault in this logic, I'm sure you'll let me know.

The organisations that are out there trying to save species are targeting particular species. There's no doubt about it and as far as that goes, I'm not criticising. They're focusing their scarce resources as best they can. Organisations such as "The World Wide Fund for Nature" probably concentrate on animals that have the "ahhh" factor because they rake in contributions. They're all doing more than I am. My days of rolling up my sleeves and getting stuck in (which I used to do, by the way) are passed. All I do now is write letters and make donations so who am I to criticise.

Superficially, selecting species for genetic uniqueness seems no worse than selecting for cuteness and, of course, it's far more logical. But donating money to environmental organisations because a cuddly looking panda is threatened with extinction is something a lot of people do without giving the matter much consideration beyond "oh, poor baby, that's so sad". If, under some ideal set of conditions, you found yourself in a position to put people right and get them thinking logically, which I infer from your posts is your hope, dream or ambition, then you would need to take into consideration the fact that they will have emotional responses as the foundation that logic must rest on. I think that you'll find most people who are amenable to that sort of thinking will start off with the notion that the basic and most important unit is the individual. Also, as Wazungu pointed out, the merest hint of an admission on the part of a person or organisation perceived to be an authority on the matter, that some species are expendable, sends out a very dangerous message to those just looking for an excuse.

In any case, we're sort of projecting what should happen in the best of all possible worlds - which our species has ensured this is not. I have to say in my best of all possible worlds, just one species wouldn't be selecting all the genes that made it into the future. Natural selection may not be nice or kind but it's had about three and a half billion years of practice, compared to which we "experts" (I don't include myself in that particular "we") have been here for about 5 minutes and think we know what we're doing. Actually, I don't think we do know what we're doing and we'd do somewhat less damage if we could all admit to that. The systems on our planet are big and complicated and our minds are little and ephemeral and not very good at considering the future beyond our own (individual) existence.

I can see how your posts get so long now Case. Trouble is you've said so much that it needs a long long post to answer everything and I'm not up to the job. I can't sit a moment longer. I've let you off lightly.

Speak to you all later.
Sal

Gooday Wazungu, Salamander the Mugwump, and Bran the Explorer (just felt like a touch of formality in the salutations today!),

Bran, I do hope your beloved is fit, well and raring to go in no time at all - please pass on my love. But Bran, no matter what might turn on it, I am not going to encase your head with three pairs of panty hose and plait you six whatsies!! I would pay to see what it looks like, but I am not doing it. That is, I think, something to ask of your beloved, or perhaps demand of your students this weekend. And, you (s)kite, what is an Olive Whistler? We had a pair of swamp hens, not native hens, in the front garden the other day, and neither of us had seen one before (or since). And we had a rabbit drinking out of the birdbath.

Hey StM, you are right about time shrinking, and no I am most definitely not under 30 - I wish - and yes, you are right, that time will pass quickly enough. As Bran said, high on the priority list will be to take my beloved to the magnificent Colne Valley, and introduce her to my sister, but revisiting where I was raised and arguing with my sibling can only occupy so much of one's valuable holiday time before thoughts turn to Bruges, and Paris, and Salzburg, and Florence. The beloved also wants to see some of Portugal, and rural Italy (doesn't necessarily have to be Tuscany, but since we are going to be in Florence ....).

Waz, thank you so much for that delightful story about John Harington, which is apparently true!! I am going to find a way to use it - that's a promise. So it goes without saying, really, that I haven't finished, and with the weekend forecast predicted to be ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS, it isn't coming any closer to conclusion, either. And yes, StM, Augustus was the big cheese in the early episodes of 'I Claudius', he was played by Brian Blessed, who I remember from what seems like centuries ago playing in Z Cars.

It is as Bran said bonza today and the beloved is having a day off work, ostensibly to cram for her final exam of the year, which is tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow, Saturday morning at 9.00am. I just telephoned, and she says she is having great difficulty in being able to concentrate on study because (a) Ben keeps wanting to play; (b) the weather is just mmmmm; (c) the Blue Wrens keep twittering around her feet, wanting some breadcrumbs; and (d) who cares about sodding exams anyway.

I do hope you all have a lovely weekend, and take good care,

Walter.

Hello again everyone,

StM, I think we must have nearly simulposted. Appearances to the contrary notwithstanding, I do very occasionally have sense enough to shut up and listen and learn. Hence my silence on the profound debate taking place with you, Waz and the Marauding one. But just had to say you wowed me by declaring 'I'm a veggie and I adore animals.' And that your starting points were emotion and instinct. Sounds convincing to me. 'Nuff said.

Walter.

My starting point is also emotion and instinct. Without that, we have no cause! I don't say individuals are important. They are VERY important! The ultimate goal of preserving and promoting life on Earth has to include the maximisation of the potential of every single individual on the planet - human or otherwise.

I also love animals. I love ALL animals, including the non-cuddly ones, if you think back to my post about slugs. I also love plants. I happen to have three cats - a while back you talked about how cats were not exacly "green"; down here I have managed to train them more or less not to catch birds, and in the rare instance that they do, it is usually one of the more common kinds. In those instances I usually manage to rescue it while still alive and in one piece, and I then give it to a friend who rehabilitates sick and injured birds. But I love my cats dearly. If I did not have the opportunity to get as close to a non-human living creature as I am to my cats, my attitude to nature might have been different. As it is, I love my cats just as much as I love the mice and the birds and the other things I often have to rescue from them. I love lions and leopards and cheetahs and hyenas and hunting dogs just as much as I love the antelope and other animals that they prey on. You see, there are moral dilemmas we get confronted with when we deal with nature, and the instincts of different people might lead them to different stances.

In my case I have chosen to regard the individual and the species as BOTH being EQUALLY important. I believe that we need predators in nature, and we need a renewal of life, but somehow we need to reconcile that with a concern for the well-being of individual animals as well. I say we must allow individuals the freedom of their consciences here. In my country there has been great conflict between different factions of animal-lovers and nature lovers, based on the conflict between the needs of individual animals and the needs of groups of animals. Why can't each group not see and accept the other's point of view? For practical examples, here are two real-life cases. The first is the Himalayan Tahr. It occurs in Asia, where it is not very common, but some of these attractive-looking mountain goats were brought to South Africa and introduced onto Table Mountain. In fact, I think it was only a single pair. But very rapidly the pair became a whole tribe. They were overrunning the mountain, in the absence of predators, and damaging the plant life. And there are quite a large number of plant species that are completely restricted to Table Mountain - quite a common occurrence here given the super-high plant diversity and localisation of the country. So we were forced to choose: the Tahrs, or the plant life? When Nature Conservation departments decided that the harmful alien animals must be removed, and started an extermination program, they found themselves opposed by Capetonians who were horrified about the slaughter of the poor creatures. The effort was halted, and the Tahrs started multiplying again. Now they are as abundant as ever, and the native plant life is still in danger. Also, because of their presence, it is not possible to re-introduce indigenous antelope like the Klipspringer to the reserve.

Another problem is that of the Mallard duck. This duck was also imported to SA in the form of farm ducks; later some of them were released onto wild ponds and wetlands. The mallard duck is an aggressive mater; commonly it happens that groups of males gang up on a female, subdue and mate with her, "rape"-style. Now we have a duck species here, the Yellow-billed duck, that is genetically similar enough to the Mallard that cross-breeding can occur. The drakes are very different, but the ducks similar. So Mallard drakes often forcibly mate with yellowbilled ducks. What is happening is that more and more Mallard genes are getting into the Yellowbilled population, and less and less pure Yellowbilleds can be found. But when nature conservation authorities started removing the Mallards from ponds, the public was outraged and reacted violently. So still our native duck populations are threatened.

You get even worse problems with pigs, cats, rats and mongooses on some oceanic islands, such as New Zealand, where there are many flightless birds and other defenseless creatures. Where should your concern be - with the native species, or with the individuals of the introduced ones?

Can I be criticised for in this case wanting to preserve indigenous species against introduced threats? I don't think so. You can't say a species is less important than individuals. Species are composed of individuals, individuals belong to species. While I have a concern for individual animals, I also have a sense of the importance of the greater wholes that the individuals belong to.

In my own case, I HAVE to prioritise. Like I said, I cultivate indigenous plants. In this endeavour I will achieve the most success by focusing on the right kinds. I simply cannot cultivate all 25 000 indigenous species. Even so, I am going to try! But in practice, every day, not only must I take into consideration which kinds are most threatened, I also have practical matters to contend with, for instance I simply don't KNOW how to cultivate many kinds, most are unavailable to me, the setup I have don't allow me to cultivate others, and so on. Every choice I make has real-world repercussions. Suppose I decide to focus on Natal Flame Bushes; then I might manage to save 10 000 individuals of the species over my remaining lifetime, and this may help save the species; but by doing this, I have less time and means available for saving, for instance, Lebombo Cycads, and as a result the cycad goes extinct. But if I focused on the cycad instead, I might have managed to save 10 000 individuals and the species would have been safe. So I have to decide: which is more important, the cycad, or the flame bush? Perhaps I decide the cycad, but my efforts are insufficient to save it; perhaps I decide the flame bush, and then manage to save it while the cycad survives on its own. So, there is a degree of uncertainty built into the undertaking, but even so, the more you understand about what you're doing, the bigger the chance that you will make a good choice. In the end, different individuals will make different choices, and often someone will make the wrong choice, but still you will not be able to fault that person's choice. All I'm saying is, try to make your choices with as much information and consideration as you can.

There are loads and loads of different strategies people use in trying to save the planet or to improve its condition. For instance, you can mobilise people against GM or against industry or mining in sensitive areas. Or you can try to educate people about ecology, the importance of biodiversity and so on. Or you can be directly involved in the proclamation and management of nature reserves. Or you can breed threatened species outside of their habitats, to re-introduce them later. All of these approaches, and many more, have value. Which one the concerned individual makes use of, depends on the situation, means and interests of that individual. But in all instances it is better to do something than nothing; it is possible to be a part of the solution and not a part of the problem. And I think we can all improve our efforts even more by understanding the broad range of different strategies, and understanding how they can augment each other. While I have been talking a lot about nature, you cannot seperate people from nature; if we want to save the planet, we will also have to solve problems in HUMAN society, such as poverty, ignorance, overpopulation, exploitation, political injustice and so on.

Morning All

What a great day! I have just cooked bacon and eggs, and made coffee for my still-a-little-poorly Beloved - and life is otherwise grand. A quick email to send best wishes to you Walter for assessments coming up and to your lovely partner for her exam today. Hard to have to do such insane things on a day like today.

How is life in the UK? I heard on the news that there had been some flooding (as well as in Italy). I have relatives in Hampshire and wondered if they may have been affected.

On to the grocery shopping and preparing for my Vikings class. Take care All.

Cheerio
Bran.

Please, guys, help me out here! I have been close to death with worry; my stomach is clenched into knots and I haven't been able to sleep a wink all night! SPECIES AND GROUPS ARE IMPORTANT - TO ME!!! I can hardly live with myself when I try to conceive of all the species that are going extinct as we speak! Is that not important, too?!! Feelings are not restricted to individuals - whole populations of individuals, thousands of generations of millions of individuals - can and do they not feel, too? Can you say, individuals are important but cultures aren't, so genocide is allowable? Language and culture and value systems and beliefs can vanish, because they are not important, but individual people are? What are individuals WITHOUT those things? What are we without the elements that make us US? We have our history, our situation in the world, our daily lives, our interests, our personalities, and all of that is important! EVERYTHING is important!

The genes include the entire histories of species, going right back to the emergence of life on Earth. Every species contains a unique piece of that history. Every species that vanish is like a huge library of totally unique books burning down. The genes are important to the creatures that eventually emerge from them! Without the genes, they won't be there! Without genetics, there would be no life!

Individual genes don't think, but they contain memories that are available to the living creatures that carry them. The different genes of different species carry different memories - much of it manifested in physical features, but many also on the level of the mind itself. The human DNA allows the human mind to exist. It is the carrier of individuality, which is basic to personality. I even believe that a large part of the mind actually operates within the structure of the DNA itself.

Please, reassure me before I die of grief! Without my background, I am nothing; without the whole, the part is nothing. There is nothing sadder than the last individual of a species, isolated from all its soul-sharers, without hope, without a meaningful place left in the world. Please, look beyond the trees and see the forest!!! You cannot take individuals out of the context they are meant to be in! You cannot tend to the concerns of individuals if you cannot see the bigger beings that they are parts of, the place that they belong, those super-individual concerns that give meaning to their existence!!!

Do you for a second think that I am not motivated by feelings, emotions, instincts, the deepest cares that a human heart can have?

Is biodiversity not important? Should we not try and conserve as much of it as possible? I don't care if you want to talk about genes or not - just tell me this: what is the meaning and importance of biodiversity? Should we sit on our asses and watch everything slide down the toilet, or should we try to do something about it? Supposing we can do something, should we decide what to do by throwing dice or by following our first whims, or should we try to understand just what the hell is going on and what the best things are that we can do about it? Because our decisions will make a difference! A bad decision leads to everything going straight to hell; a good decision leads to heaven on earth forever. Should we refrain from deciding because the decision is too weighty for us to handle?

Please, answer quickly! Help me to sleep again!

Good afternoon folks

This is just a quick one. I have to go to works shortly because I was poorly yesterday (my sympathy to your beloved Bran) and Friday's backlog awaits. Tonight I have to go to a dinner party that I somehow got foisted on me as a fait accompli when I wasn't paying attention so I don't suppose I'll get the chance to chat to you till tomorrow. Walter you are a very nice person. You say such sweet things. Bran it's a dull day here. It's drizzling, fairly windy, leaves blowing about. It's autumnal. Wazungu, are you off on one of your travels again or are you also in thrall to work? Case, calm down. Any differences of opinion between us aren't really all that big. It's just a question of emphasis. I intend to do a proper reply tomorrow if Wazungu hasn't said it all be then.

Work beckons and I must go (groan). Speak to you all later.
Sal

Hello everyone,
No I'm not travelling! But my brother is visiting and I've had trouble with connection time outs in getting on to h2g2 this evening.
I hope your Beloved's exam went well Walter, that both Sal (despite dinner parties and work) and your Beloved, Bran, are better and that the Viking seminar was fun. It sounds fun.
Bran I think the big floods were all in Kent and Sussex, but there was local flooding elsewhere. Sal probably knows better than I do but I wouldn't have thought Hampshire was unusually affected. Round here the Severn, even in Shrewsbury, stayed where its meant to be.

Case, I'll post a separate reply after this, as its longish and confusing - to me anyway.
Have good nights,
Wz.

Case,
I hope you don't have another sleepless night!
I can't answer all of what you said properly in a hurry and I don't have much time tonight. But Salamander is right, the differences in our opinions aren't that great. We're not discussing the main issues because we agree on them. We're just arguing a bit over the emphasis, as Sal puts it, or what I would say are our personal preferences in how we approach supporting biodiversity. I don't think we'll ever totally agree on those because we all come to the issue from different backgrounds. And that doesn't matter. It can help. When people can work together despite seeing things from different perspectives there's less chance of missing something from the whole picture. You said we need to see past the trees to see the forest. I have little trouble in seeing past the trees, my problem is that sometimes I have difficulty seeing the forest on the horizon! So if Sal looks at the trees, you look at the forest and I look at the horizon we've got it all covered! I'm not really being flippant, just saying that we don't have to agree on all the details to be in agreement about the main issue. Which IS to try and conserve as much as possible.

I think you are motivated by strong feelings. I agree that you have to see where individuals belong and where they come from, before you can do much to help them. But once you've seen that I think you can then choose whether to help at the individual level or at the species/group/culture level. There's room for both approaches.

You asked what the meaning and importance of biodiversity was. For myself I can't answer that. I've always felt very strongly that the incredible, intricate network of billions of types of life that exists out there, independent of mankind, was something I never wanted to see any part of destroyed. It's too deep water for me to start trying to explain why!

Yes we should try to do something, and yes we should try to understand as much as we can to make good decisions about what to do. But don't dismiss the value of instinctive decisions Case. Where someone does have background knowledge and good intentions an instinctive decision can be the right one. It isn't equivalent to rolling a dice. I don't think it always needs scientific rationalisation to reach a good decision.

One more thing, both Sal and I were worried by the prioritising issue, which lead to this whole debate. I can't speak for Sal, but for myself I think it may be because over here politics are played with everything. What should be the tools of objective science and reason are constantly distorted and misused. Even by our scientists and doctors. (Look at the lies that were told over the BSE issue. But of course none of it was lies - they had just redefined all the words they used. Safe meant safe as in aeroplanes are safe. I.e.. most of the time you survive flying.) As a result I looked at your prioritising with unease, seeing the potential for its misuse. That doesn't mean that I don't realise that, in the backs of our minds we should always be aware that we need to make the right, best, choices when there are choices to be made. I'd just like to keep it at the back of my mind, not the front.

I don't want to get into the genetics issue just now. One thing at a time is all I can manage but I have a distrust of the use the science is being put to here too, for the same reasons I gave in the last paragraph. GM is a real issue here and we are being "reassured" of its safety in the same words that were used re BSE. Making many people deeply suspicious.

Please don't have any more sleepless nights over debates like this! Debating issues is all part of the education process, all part of thinking through and understanding issues. You said there needed to be more education. Challenging ideas is educational !
Anyway I need to get some sleep myself, so,
till next time,
Wz

Alright, I'll try and be a bit more detached... But don't accuse me of not being motivated by feelings and emotions! To me, you can never feel deeply enough, and also, you can never think hard enough. Both are equally important!

And yes, we can have different approaches; I think our different strategies can be compatible.

Debating is important, that is true. One reason why the discussion started to take over my mind was the "instinct" angle introduced into it. Because, once people's instincts start conflicting, and they aren't open to logical discussion about them, all communication breaks down, all hope is lost! We need to keep even our instincts open to persuasion! Different people feel differenly about things - but one thing I DO believe is that many of the problems come from ignorance. People have the right attitudes, but the wrong information, and so they come to wrong conclusions that lead them into counterproductive "stances". A lot of what is currently being done by caring individuals directly conflicts with what is being done by other caring individuals, and because they end up thwarting each other, the uncaring individuals can go on messing everything up with complete impunity. And that disresses me immensely.

Alright, I'll try and be a bit more detached... But don't accuse me of not being motivated by feelings and emotions! To me, you can never feel deeply enough, and also, you can never think hard enough. Both are equally important!

And yes, we can have different approaches; I think our different strategies can be compatible. Even more than that - I think we owe it to each other to try and make our different strategies as compatible as possible. Not the same - but complementary to each other.

Debating is important, that is true. One reason why the discussion started to take over my mind was the "instinct" angle introduced into it. Because, once people's instincts start conflicting, and they aren't open to logical discussion about them, all communication breaks down, all hope is lost! We need to keep even our instincts open to persuasion! Different people feel differenly about things - but one thing I DO believe is that many of the problems come from ignorance. People have the right attitudes, but the wrong information, and so they come to wrong conclusions that lead them into counterproductive "stances". A lot of what is currently being done by caring individuals directly conflicts with what is being done by other caring individuals, and because they end up thwarting each other, the uncaring individuals can go on messing everything up with complete impunity. And that distresses me immensely.

Good afternoon Wazungu, Walter, Bran and Case

Another quick one. I do believe you've said all I could have hoped to say Wazungu and you said it very much better than I could have done. I agree with everything you said, unreservedly.

Case, thank you very much. You made me think about the issues in a new way and that's helpful. It seems to me that we agree on the central points and we can afford to differ (by which I mean look at things differently rather than disagree) on the slightly more peripheral matters.

Sorry I failed to answer your question in my hurry to get off to work Bran. Wazungu's right. I don't think Hampshire was too badly affected. East Sussex and Kent got the worst of it. I was a bit worried about my Brother in Brighton which is in East Sussex. He has his office in part of Poole Valley. They also seem to have got off lightly though. Lewes, just up the road was in a terrible state.

Walter, there seems to be a lot of this simultaneity going on. I think messages 220 and 221 got posted more or less together (that was me and Bran) then 222 and 223 arrived almost together (you and I). You don't suppose we're synchronizing like those cicadas, do you?

Speak to you all at greater length when I've got a bit more vertical to spend.
Sal

Hi there all,
I hope Case has caught up on sleep. I haven't, I meant to have an early night last night but got too involved in that last post. Then had to get up early to pick my brother up to buy paint. We've had another day painting my mother's bathroom. She didn't know what she was letting herself in for when she let us start. She now has a cross section desert island, blue green seas, underwater shoals of fish, large Tudor era sailing ship in a strong wind, small becalmed tea clipper, three swaying palm trees and a macaw, a tern and a gannet on one wall, an enormous billowing sail on another wall. And today's effort; a tent effect saffron ceiling. There's still one blank wall. Any ideas anyone? (Painting Davy Jones on the bottom of the bath has already been vetoed.)

I'm glad you were happy with what I was saying to Case, Sal. Case has brought new ideas to me too.
Case, I would never accuse you not being motivated by feelings and emotions! I don't think anyone reading through all your posts here, or your homespace, could. I'm glad you're ok with our debating because I've certainly learnt something from it all and I don't think you need to worry that anyone here wouldn't be open to logical discussion. You mentioned conservation groups conflicting with each other. Over the Table Mountain Goats and Yellow Billed ducks. We have experience with that here, with the Ruddy duck taking over the White Billed duck in exactly the manner you described re the Mallard. Then right on my doorstep (which I might have mentioned before) one group of local people is making the tree felling necessary to preserve a rare bog plant very difficult. They actually know the implications for the bog plant, what they don't seem to realise is that the site concerned is only preserved because of that bog plant. If it disappears the site will have lost a valuable part of it's protection against being farmed or developed. Rereading much of what you've said and thinking about my local bog plant it seems to me that the most important need is education. Which we've mentioned before I know. The only education I was ever given was about three weeks as part of Biology O'Level. All these trees of yours Case - do you ever get the chance to show kids round them, and explain what you're doing? Or adults?

Well I really am going to get an early night tonight. Sal, this shortage of vertical resources - wouldn't have any connection with seasonal beverages, I don't suppose? Would it?
Wz.

Good morning Wazungu, StM and Bran,

What a lovely weekend, 26 on Saturday and 27 yesterday. Gins and tonics on the terrace, chilled beer and cool wine with friends and family, the buzz and murmur and twitter of creatures great and small, the SMELL of Spring. You should see the Jasmine which festoons the posts on our front verandah (at least we thing there are still posts in there somewhere); it has gone troppo and the scent is almost overpowering. In the post and Jasmine combo outside our bedroom windown a pair of blackbirds have nested, and the chicks I guess must be about five days old.

Our Spur-winged Plovers have been mating again, as I found out the hard way on Saturday. They have nested, if you can call it that, on our back garden (four eggs). I had to mow the grass, and soon realised there was a nest, so basically 'went around' the area but my oh my, did those plovers give me some curry! I must have been dive-bombed more times than the ships in Pearl Harbour. The good news is that the hen stayed with the nest, and as I left this morning she was grumbling at me as I checked things out - ungrateful little sod. Now I have to keep Ben the Vandal out of the back for the next week or so. By the way, he has completely eliminated the apricot tree - like as in he has chewed and/or eaten every single bit of what was once a healthy and rather attractive young tree of maybe two metres high. A friend said yesterday that she once had a German Shepherd that didn't stop chewing until the age of three!

Well, better get off and let you guys do the next round of exchanges with the passionate and prolific Marauding one. Take care y'all,

Walter.

Hey, everyone! Feeling better - slept all through Saturday and Sunday! I hope you can manage to catch a whole lotta z's soon, Wazungu!

Walter and Bran - you've been a bit quiet lately. Don't let me dominate this forum with "my" issues, and don't be put off by my long posts! I am personally quite interested in history and education and all the stuff you've been discussing, I just don't talk much about it because I know too little.

Those floods - were they bad? Last year we had terrible floods in the northern and eastern parts of SA and in Mozambique. Thousands of people were left homeless and destitute, and many died. I hope yours wasn't as bad as this!

I do try to educate kids, and adults. I've been giving talks to the junior nature class of a school over here; I hope to be doing so many times more. Excursion-wise things haven't worked out too well; last year during the "trip season" it rained all the time. But I did take them around the schoolyard, pointing out indigenous trees to them. I also tell my friends about trees, and about nature. But it's still at an incredibly rudimentary level; instilling new attitudes in people is not going to happen overnight. Many people (but still too few) here are mammal-conscious and/or bird-conscious, but little thought is given to reptiles, or ambhibians, or fish, or invertebrates, or plant life, and the whole idea of "ecology" and habitats, ecosystems, the full meaning of biodiversity, is just too much for most to take in. We DO need a SYSTEM of educating people about the environment. Start by showing kids mammals, birds and plants up close, let them touch them and become aware of their life. I think kids should be encouraged, with adult supervision and assistance, to cultivate plants because then they will learn that plants, too, are alive, sensitive, with very special needs; also they will become aware of GROWTH. I think it will be great for a little kid to have raised a tree from a seed, to plant it, and then to see how quickly it becomes taller than he/she is! Imagine you had, as a kid, raised and planted a few hundred indigenous trees and all of them were now big and magnificent and formed a part of a healthy ecosystem, with birds and squirrels and all kinds of other things living on, in and under them! That will supply the instinctive awareness of what the web of life that covers the earth is really all about.

But kids should also be taught FACTS: learn the different kinds of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, invertebrates, learn about all the different groups of plants, about their classification and distribution. Learn about the BIOMES of the earth: tropical rainforest, tropical seasonal forest and woodland, savannah, desert and semi-desert, tropical and temperate grasslands, temperate forests, boreal forest, tundra. They should also learn about local habitats: rivers, lakes, swamps, marshes and bogs, the incredible range of habitats that are found on mountains from the bottom to the top. They should learn about the ocean: its different levels, from the surface to the deepest trenches - including those that exist isolated from the sun, finding energy from volcanic vents; they should learn about coral reefs, about the sargasso sea, about the rich plankton ranges in the cold oceans where the whales feed. They should learn about islands and why they are vulnerable. They should also be taught the history of life on earth: the first living cells over three billion years ago, the start of photosynthesis, the first multi-celled creatures, the first hard-shelled animals, the conquest of land, the rise of the amphibians and the reptiles, the dinosaurs, the mammal-like reptiles and the first mammals, the rise of the birds, the extinction of the dinosaurs, the diversification of the mammals, the emergence of Man, the great extinction of the ice ages and the advent of civilisation. I think it is important to teach evolution - the most important aspect about it, to me, is the idea that every living creature on Earth is RELATED in a real sense to every other living creature. We share the same "blood"! You can take any creature, even a lowly earthworm or a spider or a jellyfish, or even a fern or a giant Sequoia, and that is actually a relave of yours - if you go back far enough in time, you'll find a creature that was both your and its ancestor! Don't mind the controversies, but teach children THAT. Teach them the science! They must learn about biology and ecology, about pollution, about overpopulation, about the destruction and disruption of habitats.

I think every kid ought to be taught all of that. What I am doing is infinitessimally little compared to what ought to be done, but I hope my efforts will become more effective as time goes by. And I urge you, don't slacken your commitment! Things are going to get better, but only if we persevere!

Hey, everyone! Feeling better - slept all through Saturday and Sunday! I hope you can manage to catch a whole lotta z's soon, Wazungu!

Walter and Bran - you've been a bit quiet lately. Don't let me dominate this forum with "my" issues, and don't be put off by my long posts! I am personally quite interested in history and education and all the stuff you've been discussing, I just don't talk much about it because I know too little.

Those floods - were they bad? Last year we had terrible floods in the northern and eastern parts of SA and in Mozambique. Thousands of people were left homeless and destitute, and many died. I hope yours wasn't as bad as this!

I do try to educate kids, and adults. I've been giving talks to the junior nature class of a school over here; I hope to be doing so many times more. Excursion-wise things haven't worked out too well; last year during the "trip season" it rained all the time. But I did take them around the schoolyard, pointing out indigenous trees to them. I also tell my friends about trees, and about nature. But it's still at an incredibly rudimentary level; instilling new attitudes in people is not going to happen overnight. Many people (but still too few) here are mammal-conscious and/or bird-conscious, but little thought is given to reptiles, or ambhibians, or fish, or invertebrates, or plant life, and the whole idea of "ecology" and habitats, ecosystems, the full meaning of biodiversity, is just too much for most to take in. We DO need a SYSTEM of educating people about the environment. Start by showing kids mammals, birds and plants up close, let them touch them and become aware of their life. I think kids should be encouraged, with adult supervision and assistance, to cultivate plants because then they will learn that plants, too, are alive, sensitive, with very special needs; also they will become aware of GROWTH. I think it will be great for a little kid to have raised a tree from a seed, to plant it, and then to see how quickly it becomes taller than he/she is! Imagine you had, as a kid, raised and planted a few hundred indigenous trees and all of them were now big and magnificent and formed a part of a healthy ecosystem, with birds and squirrels and all kinds of other things living on, in and under them! That will supply the instinctive awareness of what the web of life that covers the earth is really all about.

But kids should also be taught FACTS: learn the different kinds of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, invertebrates, learn about all the different groups of plants, about their classification and distribution. Learn about the BIOMES of the earth: tropical rainforest, tropical seasonal forest and woodland, savannah, desert and semi-desert, tropical and temperate grasslands, temperate forests, boreal forest, tundra. They should also learn about local habitats: rivers, lakes, swamps, marshes and bogs, the incredible range of habitats that are found on mountains from the bottom to the top. They should learn about the ocean: its different levels, from the surface to the deepest trenches - including those that exist isolated from the sun, finding energy from volcanic vents; they should learn about coral reefs, about the sargasso sea, about the rich plankton ranges in the cold oceans where the whales feed. They should learn about islands and why they are vulnerable. They should also be taught the history of life on earth: the first living cells over three billion years ago, the start of photosynthesis, the first multi-celled creatures, the first hard-shelled animals, the conquest of land, the rise of the amphibians and the reptiles, the dinosaurs, the mammal-like reptiles and the first mammals, the rise of the birds, the extinction of the dinosaurs, the diversification of the mammals, the emergence of Man, the great extinction of the ice ages and the advent of civilisation. I think it is important to teach evolution - the most important aspect about it, to me, is the idea that every living creature on Earth is RELATED in a real sense to every other living creature. We share the same "blood"! You can take any creature, even a lowly earthworm or a spider or a jellyfish, or even a fern or a giant Sequoia, and that is actually a relave of yours - if you go back far enough in time, you'll find a creature that was both your and its ancestor! Don't mind the controversies, but teach children THAT. Teach them the science! They must learn about biology and ecology, about pollution, about overpopulation, about the destruction and disruption of habitats.

I think every kid ought to be taught all of that. What I am doing is infinitessimally little compared to what ought to be done, but I hope my efforts will become more effective as time goes by. And I urge you, don't slacken your commitment! Things are going to get better, but only if we persevere!

Hey, everyone! Feeling better - slept all through Saturday and Sunday! I hope you can manage to catch a whole lotta z's soon, Wazungu!

Walter and Bran - you've been a bit quiet lately. Don't let me dominate this forum with "my" issues, and don't be put off by my long posts! I am personally quite interested in history and education and all the stuff you've been discussing, I just don't talk much about it because I know too little.

Those floods - were they bad? Last year we had terrible floods in the northern and eastern parts of SA and in Mozambique. Thousands of people were left homeless and destitute, and many died. I hope yours wasn't as bad as this!

I do try to educate kids, and adults. I've been giving talks to the junior nature class of a school over here; I hope to be doing so many times more. Excursion-wise things haven't worked out too well; last year during the "trip season" it rained all the time. But I did take them around the schoolyard, pointing out indigenous trees to them. I also tell my friends about trees, and about nature. But it's still at an incredibly rudimentary level; instilling new attitudes in people is not going to happen overnight. Many people (but still too few) here are mammal-conscious and/or bird-conscious, but little thought is given to reptiles, or ambhibians, or fish, or invertebrates, or plant life, and the whole idea of "ecology" and habitats, ecosystems, the full meaning of biodiversity, is just too much for most to take in. We DO need a SYSTEM of educating people about the environment. Start by showing kids mammals, birds and plants up close, let them touch them and become aware of their life. I think kids should be encouraged, with adult supervision and assistance, to cultivate plants because then they will learn that plants, too, are alive, sensitive, with very special needs; also they will become aware of GROWTH. I think it will be great for a little kid to have raised a tree from a seed, to plant it, and then to see how quickly it becomes taller than he/she is! Imagine you had, as a kid, raised and planted a few hundred indigenous trees and all of them were now big and magnificent and formed a part of a healthy ecosystem, with birds and squirrels and all kinds of other things living on, in and under them! That will supply the instinctive awareness of what the web of life that covers the earth is really all about.

But kids should also be taught FACTS: learn the different kinds of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, invertebrates, learn about all the different groups of plants, about their classification and distribution. Learn about the BIOMES of the earth: tropical rainforest, tropical seasonal forest and woodland, savannah, desert and semi-desert, tropical and temperate grasslands, temperate forests, boreal forest, tundra. They should also learn about local habitats: rivers, lakes, swamps, marshes and bogs, the incredible range of habitats that are found on mountains from the bottom to the top. They should learn about the ocean: its different levels, from the surface to the deepest trenches - including those that exist isolated from the sun, finding energy from volcanic vents; they should learn about coral reefs, about the sargasso sea, about the rich plankton ranges in the cold oceans where the whales feed. They should learn about islands and why they are vulnerable. They should also be taught the history of life on earth: the first living cells over three billion years ago, the start of photosynthesis, the first multi-celled creatures, the first hard-shelled animals, the conquest of land, the rise of the amphibians and the reptiles, the dinosaurs, the mammal-like reptiles and the first mammals, the rise of the birds, the extinction of the dinosaurs, the diversification of the mammals, the emergence of Man, the great extinction of the ice ages and the advent of civilisation. I think it is important to teach evolution - the most important aspect about it, to me, is the idea that every living creature on Earth is RELATED in a real sense to every other living creature. We share the same "blood"! You can take any creature, even a lowly earthworm or a spider or a jellyfish, or even a fern or a giant Sequoia, and that is actually a relave of yours - if you go back far enough in time, you'll find a creature that was both your and its ancestor! Don't mind the controversies, but teach children THAT. Teach them the science! They must learn about biology and ecology, about pollution, about overpopulation, about the destruction and disruption of habitats.

I think every kid ought to be taught all of that. What I am doing is infinitessimally little compared to what ought to be done, but I hope my efforts will become more effective as time goes by. And I urge you, don't slacken your commitment! Things are going to get better, but only if we persevere!

Sorry about the TRIPLE-post! My service provider is really bad - I sometimes wait for what seems like hours to get my posts through! In this case I said "Post message" and after ten minutes there was no sign that anything had happened; then I clicked the button again and waited for very long, still without the slightest sign of response. Then I clicked it again, and this time I was at least told that the computer has found a site; then it cut me off before I could connect to the forum and see if my post had gone through. I had to try about five times to reconnect before being successful. But I finally managed by back-tracking and "refreshing" the forum on a "previous" page, still without having the slightest idea if my post was there or not! I was actually relieved to see that it had gone through three times, I just wish there was I way I could KNOW that immediately after clicking the "Post message" button, without all the rigmarole! By the way, I've been disconnected again, so perhaps I'll have as much trouble getting THIS post through! Ah well.

Good Morning Everyone

What a lot of activity on the forum! I was a touch busy over the weekend, so had lots to read to catch up. The Vikings class was great ... I actually had a participant called Thor (that was his real name - a Dane), so I had to watch all my pronunciation, which I'm sure that I was getting wrong a lot of the time. There was even a lady there whose daughter had just come back from spending a year on the Faeroes - and she had learned Old Norse while there. Go figure.

Thanks for the flood info - I had assumed that I would have heard if the rels were inundated, but you never know ... distance can do odd things to people's expectations about contacts. Two of my aunties are twins - one lives in Somerset, the other in Darwin (Aus). And would you beleive, the one in Somerset forgets the other's birthday! Sounds comical, but true.

The painting sounds great! Not sure what else might go in such a fresco - it would be great to see.

No hassles UMP about "hogging" - I have been a bit obsessed with the Tome again (which is chugging along well folks), so have not had time for long posts.

Oh ... does anyone know what "the Nine Worthies" might refer to? I came across it in an article about Charlemagne, calling him one of the nine worthies. I wondered if it might refer to people who have had "... the Great" attached to their name, as in Charles the Great. I think that there is a lot of traditional education that we miss out on over here - I wasn't even told about Alfred and the cakes when I was at school. Horror!

Well ... porridge time again. Take care Everyone.
Cheerio
Bran.