h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This will make the link readable for our readers.

http://internationalmensday.com/founders-statement/

[For what it's worth, the world managed without a women's movement and a men's movement for quite a long time. I wonder why. ]

Well, for one thing men didn't allow women to have a movement, paulh. To have equal rights. Women had to fight hard for this. Suffragettes were imprisoned. And forcefed when they hunger striked. At least one of them died.

I wasn't there, and haven't read much of the history of it. I have read some of the history of the temperance movement. Women could have an influence on banning liquor even if they couldn't vote, though the vote would have made it easier.

There have been influential women even without the vote.
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Of course, great leaders of any gender are rare, so maybe I'm cherrypicking, not a great way to proceed.

It's a big world. Can we agree that almost no one is entirely good or bad? I hesitate to say it, but even Trump has managed to give his children some good advice, namely to stay away from drugs and nicotine.

And, they've accomplished a lot in addition to that
http://www.thelist.com/35707/untold-truth-trump-kids/

Some of this reeks of "Men's Rights Movement" blather. While some issues addressed by MRM are legitimate, more is male supremacist, faux victimhood drivel. It goes from legitimate concerns parenting rights to toxic "gamergate" style female bashing pretty quick.

re post 25

Which parts of this reeks, Baron? I only put young Markus Valentin's words up for debate. Not IMD and MRM

We're dealing with generalizations. Individuals may face situations that hardly seem just. But other individuals might deserve worse than they get. It all depends.

Our court systems are designed to bring closure to disputes. Maybe not ad well aso ne might hope, but.....

What reeks? Specifically young Markus' words.

"Once again Men's International Day on 19 November was ignored by all the media."
"But why can readers not also... open the media and hear about men's struggle for equality?"
This reeks of faux victimhood and conspiracy.
The "men's struggle for equality" is especially troubling. Obviously it implies that men have been oppressed rather than being, historically, the oppressors.

Yes, as I said earlier, there are some valid topics expressed by such folk, like men's health issues and parental rights, but to pretend that men have been treated like second class citizens would be farcical if it weren't for the many people in these movements that carry it further into violent threats online and vicious trolling. It also typically attracts the quite disturbing "incel" factions who honestly believe they are victims simply because they're lonely and lack social skills.

Maybe young master Jakobsen isn't a part of these troubling movements, but he's using language, dog-whistle language, that many in those movements do use.

Call me naive, Baron, but that's not how I read Jakobsen.
He is clearly happy with the women's movement and what it has achieved and still achieves. He wants the men to emulate. Not because he wants to take anything from the women. On the contrary. For example, if men get more maternity leave, it will benefit both them, the mothers and the children. The same is true in other areas. Equality benefits all.
And as I said, I do not think you will be elected vice president of the students if you are a male chauvinist. Half of the students are women. Those I studied with and the many interns I have experienced in my workplaces through more than four decades were all too smart to vote for those kinds of types.

I've honestly added what I can to this topic, and I think I've been misunderstood once, but I don't mind. I'd like to leave this topic because thinking about the world in terms of being a man or a woman has its limits. I think it was Katharine Hepburn who said that she just wanted to be a person, that gender was something she didn't really get along with. Same here.

I leave you nice folks to continue discussing this. If you come up with something special that I should see, you know where to find me.

Peace.

re post 30:

I believe you are right, paulh. We probably can't add or get more out of this. Let's change the subject to something else. How do you like this quote:

The further a man runs away from his nature, the sooner it'll find him out. [Detective Inspector Fred Thursday, Thames Valley Police]

I forgot to unsubscribe anyway.

Running away from my nature would seem dishonest. I'd never want to be that dishonest. What you see is what you get. If you want someone with a different nature, go fuind him yourself and leave me to be me.

I tried to outrun myself. But that was when I was young and insecure. Which made me trying to compensate for my (real and/or imagined) shortcomings. Which in turn made me act foolheartedly. Puberty can do that to you

Later I came to the conclusion that Fred Thursday is right. So I made a U-turn and ever since I have strived to become the best possible me

Luckily it gets easier with age. For one thing because I care a lot less now.

The best possible me? I seem to lose abilities with the passage of time.
Or maybe I was trying to be too many things to too many people. it's a dilemma.

Of course, I still do not always succeed in being myself. Not to mention the best version. But I feel it gets easier with age.
Of course we lose abilities as we get older but then no one is obligated beyond one's abilities at any given time

Those are comforting words. Thanks.

A single idea can make a difference. The health of the person with the idea is of minor importance, if the mind is clear.

Her face spoke volumes. Sadly those volumes were 42 novels by Barbara Cartland

I think Sho may be right about my being sexist. This gives me no pleasure to admit, but I can't live without being honest, at least most of the time.

A professor I had in college told me I needed to think about where I was coming from when I got overwrought in an essay about Ashley Montague's "The natural superiority of women."
http://anthropology365.com/2017/12/22/book-review-the-natural-superiority-of-women/#:~:text=The%20Natural%20Superiority%20of%20Women%20%285%20th%20Edition%29%2C,author%E2%80%99s%20thesis%3A%20women%20are%20naturally%20superior%20to%20men.

My father figured things out early. His mother and wife were both better than he at some crucial tasks. Neither he nor his children could have survived had they not been so great.

On some level I know these things, and I ride the seas of chance. My sister was always able to do so many things I couldn't, and I wanted to be on her good side, not just because its my nature to not want people pissed off at me, but because I genuinely enjoyed her company, her advice, her baked goods, and so much else.

So, even though I don't think Sho is reading this, I think she is right, though I wasn't trying to say we should go back to raising big families. Most of us don't have the money to raise and educate large numbers of children, but this isn't the only reason. We aren't on farms, isolated by large swaths of terrain, with only our relatives as company on lonely nights.

We can reach out to people in ways we never could before. As I am doing now.

So, peace. Please forgive people who have faults that they can't really correct because of the way they they were made.

I came back because i did wonder if i had misunderstood.

Apologies for stamping with boots but honestly, i deal with this stuff every day.

My take on the original comments by the young men are: yes he seems to be noticing that women have made a movement and our lot has improved. But he then literally whines that nobody covers Men's day which is partly true. But you know what i see on Men's day - me and my feminist group posting a lot, raising awareness pointing people to help groups etc etc. And getting slated for it by... men, about ho nobody orgainises anything for them. And i patiently explained here and do elsewhere that yes, we organise it for ourselves, you (men) can do that too. NOBODY is stopping you. You even have a model to follow because we have already done the heavy work of working out how to start these things and getting the ball rolling. And most feminists and feminist groups i know are happy to help but we absolutely don't want to take point on this.

This man is involved in journalism and is whining that nobody covers men's day. well, if he can't see a way out of that - who can? and that is what really got my hackles up. I know that the biggest killer of men under 35 is suicide. I know that there is domestic abuse where men are victims (of other men and of women) i know that Toxic Masculinity* literally kills men. And it must change and i am more than happy to do my part. But, as with my involvement with things like BLM, i am not elbowing to the front to take over leadership.

So please accept apologies for the way the message was delivered, it was too blunt and i know you, Paul H and Pierre are good eggs.

and

*am not getting into a discussion about what that means here

Thank you.