This is the Message Centre for Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

Howdy

Post 1

Vip

I thought I'd pop over here.

You have very strong opinions, FM, and I agree with almost all of them with one big exception - you reckon that h2g2 has a chance to succeed in its current form. I don't believe it does (but you won't catch me saying it in a more public place).

Assuming the re-brand looks good, that's a start. But unless it comes hand in hand with an expanded h2g2 staff team that can be active in PR, and some serious changes made in the focus of the site, h2g2 will continue to slide. Yes, we have a (mostly) friendly population, but without the Guide, who cares?

The only reason that I stick around and remain positive is that if we are to actually help h2g2 succeed the site will need people prepared to grit their teeth and roll with the changes.

Why did I pop over? Partly to agree with you. but I also came over to ask that you attack a little less. All you are doing is driving away the people that actually are trying to contribute, and there are precious few of those.
I don't mean the writers, specifically, I mean all of us who are trying to keep the Guide going. We know there's problems. There's no need to rub our noses in it or we're just going to give up. Then h2g2 really will die.

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 2

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

I appreciate your stance on this, but I can't just shut up and watch the decline of h2g2 without saying something. It's like watching an elderly but much-loved relative succumbing to dementia, while the rest of the family is trying to pretend that there is nothing wrong.

I also think you should draw a distinction between attacking a particular kind of thinking and also a personal attack. I don't believe in personal attacks and I don't indulge in them myself. I do however think that attitudes, beliefs, approaches to writing, whatever are always up for criticism. I criticised the article because it was (a) cliquey (b) self-satisfied (c) uninispired and (d) seemed to aim for the lowest common denominator, in that it thought it would be nodded through because we were all implictly DNA fans. I'm not, as it happens. I find most of his writing pedestrian and heavy-handed.

The final point I'd like to make is, that compared to maulings I've seen certain books or articles get in the broadsheets, the reception that Peer Review gives to its own material is often like being savaged by a dead sheep. If people choose be driven away by an occasional negative review then that's mainly because PR is afraid to entertain any other kind thatn the positive. It's also their choice. They have other choices as well, such as maybe writing something more inspired for a change and submitting *that* for review.


Howdy

Post 3

Vip

I would say that the article was aiming to a very small market, and not particularly clearly written. I thought that once I got it more defined it would become Guide material - two pages of posts later and I'm not so sure. I'm going to left FordsTowel respond to my most recent post and see how it goes. I'm fast running out of steam on that one.

smiley - popcorn

I've been chatting to Pastey (did you know him?) this morning on MSN about these very things. I've not talked about this for so long its easy to forget how bad things are, with all the 'putting on a brave face' that I do. I can't even remember the last time I saw 100 user online. 2006? 2007? We're in a stark, marked decline and I should be trying to do more about it.

h2g2 has so many flaws that it becomes a bit of a minefield, and perhaps I've been too wary of hurting feelings and voicing my opinion. The closest I've come is posting this thread: F83586?thread=7099723 which deals mostly with small things, not big things. If you have any ideas that you feel like putting in a more central place, that thread certainly used to have the Eds ear.

h2g2 needs to have a clearly defined mandate for what constitutes a Guide Entry. At the moment it loosely includes everything, which isn't right. It also needs to make sure that it comes from the right perspective - we are not, and never wanted to be, Wikipedia. The more dry, factual Entries we have the closer we look like we're just a poor copy. I'm as guilty as anyone - it's only in the last year or so I've started to wake up.

smiley - popcorn

If it turns out the BBC aren't actually going to change anything except a bit of superficial skin, are you up for starting again on a website somwehere else? It's never too late to get it (more) right. smiley - smiley Start afresh, that sort of thing. We've still got the rights to our own work...

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 4

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

I'd suggest that if we want to save h2g2, we should encourage better writing. And the way we should do that is that we should feature some individuals who really *can* write and who would be supportive of DNA's original vision. How about asking for guest pieces from Stephen Fry or Richard Dawkins, both of whom were amoung Adam's personal friends and who would probably be sympatetic to a plea for help?


Howdy

Post 5

Vip

You know, the idea hadn't even occurred to me! That would be a great idea. Not only would we end up with some really good contributions to the Guide, but they'd pull over readers from those two spheres on influence.

One way to encourage better writing would also be to have clearer guidelines on what should be in the Guide - do we want to be an encyclopedia? Not in my opinion. If not, what are we, and how do we define it so people know what kind of article to write?

A travel guide was the original idea, but I only want to keep that example if it is actually useful to us now. Travel guides tend to have more up-to-date information, like where you can park, or which pubs are any good. They wouldn't have in-depth histories of areas.

If it were a travel guide from an alien perspective (as I believe the pre-Beeb Guide tried to do), you could include cultural mannerisms, foods, drinks, as long as it was all related back to how that affected to you, the visitor. I'm still not sure if I agree 100% with wrat I'm writing, but I can't help feeling there's a grain of truth in there somwhere if only I can find it.

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 6

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

Nobody reads an encylopaedia for pleasure, unless they are a very special kind of person. This is why I wrote stuff like A10176987, because I wanted my writing enjoyable before everything else. And that why I didn't like that bloody article in PR. It wasn't enjoyable, it didn't attempt to draw in ny readers outside h2g2's constituency, and even then only a certain restricted of those. It had a very 'vignetted' appeal.

So, do you want to take the idea to the Eds? Might be better coming from a Scout.




Howdy

Post 7

Vip

My current tactic on that thread is to do that - try a more tongue in cheek Entry on the sorts of people that talk about such things, and how to handle them. I don't know he'll like that. After that I think I'll give up on it. I'm tired of trying to force it into a mould that I'm not even sure it can fit into.

Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll pop it up on the Scout Yahoo group (as I can't find their email at the moment, for some reason).

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 8

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

I unsubbed from that thread but popped back to see how the argument was shaping up. Apparently I don't like it because I have a 'problem with critical thinking'. I happen to be rather good at this, having worked for it, and having the letters before and after my name to prove it. What I *do* have a problem with is h2g2 disappearing up its own backside, becoming nothing more than a bit of an in-joke. I would have regarded the acceptance or otherwise of this article into the EG as a litmus test of that state of affairs.


Howdy

Post 9

Vip

I think it's pretty clear that that Entry won't make it through.

It's been good in one sense - it's been rare that an article has been rejected on these grounds, and hopefully it will have made people think about their own views on EG criteria. It certainly has me - I've been bumbling along unthinkingly for too long.

Now, how to capitalise on that, I'm not sure.

I did post your idea to the Scout forum - so far no response. I'll email them directly if I don't hear anything in a few days.

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 10

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

Go back and have a look at his response to Jimster's last comment. It's pretty plain that everyone except him thinks that the article is pointless, yet he's so willing to chew the fat.


Howdy

Post 11

Vip

Just had a look.

He doesn't appear to have twigged that we're not critiquing his writing, but whether or not any article on that subject belongs in the Guide. Dammit.

It's times like this that make you want to just switch off the computer, swear, and never return. ("Now she catches up," thinks FM).

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 12

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

Well, I've put my money where my mouth is and submitted something that I think is close to the original aims of h2g2. It's in PR right now. I suggest you give it a whirl.


Howdy

Post 13

Vip

Oooh, I'll pop over. :D

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 14

Vip

Just got an answer - the Eds have been looking into that idea themselves, possibly as part of the re-launch. smiley - ok

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 15

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

They probably wanted to keep it a surprise and we've gone and blown it open now. smiley - winkeye

I saw your latest comment in that PR thread. I really don't know why some people are so bloody obtuse. I asked FT who his audience was for the Entry much earler than that and he didn't seem to grasp that it was at best very limited and very cliquey. That's what I hate about this place: cliques. And banality.


Howdy

Post 16

Vip

I think it's more that he doesn't see the limited audience as being a problem. His view is that if this is a Guide to Life, the Universe and Everything, why can't his Entry fit in the Everything slot? There's a Entry on Netiquette (gods, I hate that word), so why not one on the etiquette of talking about this particular subject?

On the plus side I've been given the go ahead to do an interview of the new Editor, to be published in the Post. If you've got an particular questions, shout up. smiley - smiley

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 17

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

OK: what does he/she see as the main challenges facing h2g2?


Howdy

Post 18

Vip

Noted. smiley - biro

I've already got a lot lined up about the refresh (how do you hope to refocus on the EG, is it just a skin or is it a structural change as well, that sort of thing). Your question goes well with that.

Fingers crossed he'll be allowed to answer.

smiley - fairy


Howdy

Post 19

Felonious Monk - h2g2s very own Bogeyman

And how does he face the challenge of broadening h2g2's appeal with alienating its current fan base?


Howdy

Post 20

Vip

Yes, that it an interesing one that I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of! That's very much tied up in the new vision for h2g2.
No change = less alienation, more stagnation. More change = more alienation, more invigoration. It'll interesting to see.

smiley - fairy


Key: Complain about this post