A Conversation for Community Art Requests

A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 21

Masvaleix


>>> You are soon going to have very few staff on this site.

The staff is already reduced - constantly spoiling for an italic fight on every issue is getting you nowhere - fast. if you baited badgers this way, you'd be locked up. Try and understand that everything the italics do is for good of h2g2. Discuss things rationally, learn the art of compromise and the results may surprise you.

>>> If they are all known as liars, it is going to be very difficult to get the community on your side, which you are going to need. If you claim it is not a lie, then you are too stupid to be work on a website, and should resign immeadiately.

It's this kind of intellectual premature ejaculation that really makes my blood boil. Never presume to know what goes on behind the scenes - constant ranting is time consuming, counter-productive and shows an ignorance borne of immaturty and not experience. The internet experience of the italic staff on international printing/publishing projects is vast.


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 22

tourdelux

There is quite a simple reason for not allowing non-CA graphics.

If they were allowed no-one would bother going via the CAs. They'd turn up here with their picture and say "We'd like it blobbed please." It will annoy people extremely if they have an image which they end up having wasted their time on, because either their club does not meet the specs or their picture doesn't.

And you could also spare a thought for the CAs. The suggestion that it would save them time is true, but we don't want time saved. We became CAs to do art, not not to do it. As far as the artists are concerned the more art the better, because it means more fun.

I realise that Werekitty's picture is a high quality picture, but we can't set a precedent for when other people come along with their home-made pictures that may not be of such high-quality. So there are sensible reasons why this image can not be used.

Wotchit smiley - artist


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 23

Asteroid Lil - Offstage Presence


Tango, if anyone were to turn your own spelling and grammatical carelessness back on you, well, you wouldn't like it very much.

I've been watching this discussion deteriorate, and Tango seems to be under a misunderstanding about "whether the SOG should get an image, but rather about what image it should get."

It seems to me that we had a ruling about that very early on, didn't we? Spook's SOG was, it was determined, not eligible for an image. At least, not until he brings it fully onsite, attracts a regular membership and nurtures it for a while. That's what the rest of us who run clubs or societies do.

And the second point really is by way of agreeing with Wotchit. You have the CA's for graphics, and we really like doing art. However superb Werekitty's artwork may be, and however many "multiple people" (Tango's phrase) checked it, Werekitty chose not to become a CA.

Lil
smiley - artist


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 24

spook

>"Spook's SOG was, it was determined, not eligible for an image. At least, not until he brings it fully onsite, attracts a regular membership and nurtures it for a while. That's what the rest of us who run clubs or societies do."

i take offense to that. what can be classed as a regular membership for a group designed for community use to create a collection of alternative entries. the membership is the whole of h2g2, it's activities spread throughout h2g2 and are not focussed in one location. the group is fully onsite, however the conversations and encouragement of researchers, the basic principles and aims of the group, extends beyond that into e-mail, msn and word of mouth.

the major ruling is not that the group is not elligable, as that could be argued, counter argued, and extra activities brought into the fold to change that, but that the image already made would not be blobbed.

this is not about making a precedent, but about making an exception for a high quality piece of artwork. on the page it says exceptions will be made, and there is no point making a precedent that would be damaging in the future, but an exception in certain circumstances.

on the number of minor tasks, i personally would be happy if one minor task was peformed a day for a few weeks until it got to the right place. i see no urgent rush.

in response to Masvaleix post 21:
>"It's this kind of intellectual premature ejaculation that really makes my blood boil. Never presume to know what goes on behind the scenes - constant ranting is time consuming, counter-productive and shows an ignorance borne of immaturty and not experience."

your comment is actually the premature one. Tango and a few other people on h2g2, including myself, have become aware of how h2g2 works, and a lot of what goes on behind the scenes. we have seen the editorial mistakes, and have discovered a number of blobbed graphics by non-community artists that have been blobbed, a number of badly drawn pictures that don't meet h2g2 specifications that have been blobbed, and number of unused un-needed images that have been blobbed. it's the last type of images that especially infruriates people like us, as we are being told it takes time to blob an image yet blobs are being wasted on things.

just because you yourself do not know what goes on behind the scenes on h2g2, do not assume that other people do not.

spook


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 25

Z

spook - Masvalex is Ashley in his new job, I think he does know what goes on behind the scenes at h2g2.


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 26

spook

smiley - rofl

ok, now that does make the target of half my post absolutely hilarious, although the meaning is still true, there are many people of whom i am associated with who have a lot of knowledge of behind the scenes. i say associated with as i really am not to knowledge, and they are all a lot smarter then me.

smiley - rofl - genius idea for a smiley whoever had it!

spooksmiley - laugh


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 27

Masvaleix


What you must all remember is that the italics can't make as many exceptions as they used to. Where would it all stop? Seriously, the good intentions are there (ie to enhance the user-experience on h2g2) but there has to be some scaleable system to implement it.

I've been milling around some of the threads posted to entries during the down time and there are rants about 'You could have said this, you should have said that...' 'I demand to the italics do this' blah blah blah.

Oh Bite me.

If you have feedback after an entry has gone live on the front page, provide it in a constructive way - ultimately some mistakes are there because y'all didn't impart your wisdom in PR. It's your Guide... don't shout at the italics if something has been missed out because you didn't provide feedback in PR.

The nanny-nature on h2g2 has to change as the italics left have enough on their hands.






A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 28

Tango

Ok, i'm going to take each post one at a time.

From natalie:

"Tango - if you state that you have 'come to the conclusion that being civil will not work' and seem to have departed from this then I think it's rather generous of anyone to devote time to your problems, especially if you have hinted that they are 'incapable of subtlety' and are 'too stupid to be work on a website.'"

I have no problems. I am trying to help a friend get what he deserves. I am also trying to stop people in a respected position decieving others.

"We have explained the situation and all of us would benefit if problems were addressed and points raised in a civil manner."

You have explained the situation in a dishonest manner. It would benefit us all if you were honest.

From spook:

"Also, Tango mentioned ftp, and i would be quite happy to ftp you the image if you want."

The italics would have a point in not wanting to give non-CAs access to the ftp server, i think non-CAs should stick to email.

"presently, the resources are available for you to blob one graphic sent by e-mail."

IIRC a large number of CA art tests are sent in by email, and these are blobbed, so it is certainly doable.

From natalie:

"If only it were as simple as this. The truth is we are spinning an awful lot of plates at the moment and sadly don't have somebody devoted to Community Art who is going to fill in a gap in their workload with a new task. I'm afraid we can't set this sort of precedent when realistically we don't have the resources to ensure we can keep doing this."

You don't need to set a precedent, you say in the instuctions that you may make exceptions, you could make this an exception, as the image was done long before you made a clear system for community art.

From Wotchit:

"If they were allowed no-one would bother going via the CAs. They'd turn up here with their picture and say "We'd like it blobbed please." It will annoy people extremely if they have an image which they end up having wasted their time on, because either their club does not meet the specs or their picture doesn't."

So you are not allowing non-CAs to do art so as not to hurt their feelings? I don't think that is a justified fear. It is easy to tell people that the standards of non-CA work have to be the same as the standards of CA work, and i can't see anyone arguing with that.

"And you could also spare a thought for the CAs. The suggestion that it would save them time is true, but we don't want time saved. We became CAs to do art, not not to do it. As far as the artists are concerned the more art the better, because it means more fun."

Do you think the non-CA artists don't enjoy the art too? They may not be CAs because they don't have the time to do the regular CA work, but they may still want to help their club by doing a one-of picture.

"I realise that Werekitty's picture is a high quality picture, but we can't set a precedent for when other people come along with their home-made pictures that may not be of such high-quality. So there are sensible reasons why this image can not be used."

As i said above, you can easily enforce standards.

From Lil:

"Tango, if anyone were to turn your own spelling and grammatical carelessness back on you, well, you wouldn't like it very much."

Where have i been turning peoples grammer and spelling back on them? There is a difference between making a grammer mistake and using a word which has a completely difference meaning to the truth.

"I've been watching this discussion deteriorate, and Tango seems to be under a misunderstanding about "whether the SOG should get an image, but rather about what image it should get."

It seems to me that we had a ruling about that very early on, didn't we? Spook's SOG was, it was determined, not eligible for an image. At least, not until he brings it fully onsite, attracts a regular membership and nurtures it for a while. That's what the rest of us who run clubs or societies do. "

If the italics want to decide that the SOG does not deserve a picture, then i will accept that. At the moment they are saying that they can't use the picture already drawn, they have not said that there cannot be a picture at all.

"spook - Masvalex is Ashley in his new job, I think he does know what goes on behind the scenes at h2g2. "

I think spooks mistake there should go down in h2g2 history. It's certainly a classic. smiley - smiley However, joking aside, spooks point still stands, and is even more worrying if the poster was an italic. Ashley clearly did not know what he was talking about, and for an italic to not know how the h2g2 system works is a big problem, and in fact brings us back to my first post in this thread.

"If you have feedback after an entry has gone live on the front page, provide it in a constructive way - ultimately some mistakes are there because y'all didn't impart your wisdom in PR. It's your Guide... don't shout at the italics if something has been missed out because you didn't provide feedback in PR."

What are you on about? There is no PR for images. We have requested one, and it has been refused. We are not complaining about the standards of writting, we are complaining about images.

I think i have a solution to the problem. We not ask the CAs for a volunteer to act as liason between the italics and non-CA artists. That CA (or team of CAs) could upload the images in exactly the same way as they would do with their own images, so the italics would not need to do anything different. That CA could also check the standard of the art. I know this is extra work for the CAs, but we have been told that the CAs are not trying to get out of doing more. I know it is not actually drawing images themselves, but it is still working for the art on h2g2.

Tango


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 29

Mina

"they have not said that there cannot be a picture at all"

I did say that this submission could not have a picture at this time, in post 7. Sorry if my comment "we don't think that a graphic is appropriate for the SOG at this time" wasn't clear enough, but the h2g2 Editors have decided that this activity is not eligible for a graphic as it is. There are many others that have been running for a long time, have a large, active, and regular membership of Researchers who return time and time again to participate and chat about the content of the activity. We'd like to highlight this kind of activity first.
We have told spook the things that we think he needs to do to become eligible. It is his decision whether to do those things or not.

smiley - cappuccino

It is also the decision of the h2g2 Editors that *only* Community Artists are allowed to create graphics for this scheme. This means that all the graphics fit the guidelines, are correctly named, in the correct format, and are visible to the Editors at all stages of development in a place that they are checking regularly already, so any problems can be spotted early. Graphics can be sent into the Editorial team easily, and all this without the h2g2 Editors having to give a huge amount of extra time to this scheme. It also means that every single activity accepted for a graphic is treated exactly the same, and acceptance doesn't rely on anyone having to have a friend who is capable of producing art. Regardless of the reasons why some Researchers think that it shouldn't be done like this, the Editors' decision is final. It took seven Editors, numerous artists and a year to fine tune the Community Artists scheme and make this art review forum possible. The current h2g2 team do not have the time to start all over again each time someone wants a picture, and they happen to have one handy made by their mate.

smiley - cappuccino

I apologise if I misled anyone when I wrote the content for this page, and said that we don't have the facilities. 'Resources' is a more apt word, and had it been pointed out in a civil manner it would have been changed long before now.

smiley - cappuccino

It was not my intention to deceive any Researcher, and if any Researcher feel deceived, then I'm very sorry. It was a simple mistake, not a vindictive act. Please do not let my error spoil what looks to be a popular activity for Researchers.

smiley - cappuccino

Arguing over specific words and what they are worth is something I think best left for Scrabble players, so I'm off to watch the television.

Good night!


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 30

SEF

"This means that all the graphics fit the guidelines, are correctly named, in the correct format, and are visible to the Editors at all stages of development in a place that they are checking regularly already, so any problems can be spotted early."

That is also a dishonest statement. Many of the CA graphics do not fit the guidelines. Lentilla's files were frequently not named properly. Jimster's were not in the correct format a couple of times and neither his nor DoctorMO's tended to be visible in the place being checked regularly which led to their faulty images being blobbed (still unchecked by the person responsible for that) and going onto the front page.

"It took seven Editors, numerous artists and a year to fine tune the Community Artists scheme"

There is no reason to believe that the CAs are better at art than many other researchers and every reason to believe that they and the current system are unreliable.


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 31

dElaphant (and Zeppo his dog (and Gummo, Zeppos dog)) - Left my apostrophes at the BBC

That's not dishonest, it's a goal. And just because people make mistakes here and there or the system isn't perfect is no reason to go on about it in this manner.
smiley - dog


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 32

SEF

It is wrong to imply that other people couldn't meet the standards just as easily if not better than current CAs. That's an insult to every researcher who isn't a CA and is especially bad because the CAs don't actually meet the standards claimed.

People aren't told they can't write articles at all because they can't spell, write English properly or use GuideML. There's PR and in theory sub-editing to fix that - except that too often goes wrong.


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 33

dElaphant (and Zeppo his dog (and Gummo, Zeppos dog)) - Left my apostrophes at the BBC

It's fortunate that nobody made that implication then. Anyone can apply to be a CA.
smiley - dog


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 34

SEF

Mina did make that implication. Spook/Tango explained why not everyone might be a CA and the last such applicant was told the CAs weren't recruiting.


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 35

Asteroid Lil - Offstage Presence


SEF, as you've raised the subject, and as you have always spoken very strongly about issues of honesty and integrity, I wonder whether you have an opinion you'd like to share about the Atled account. You were active on that applicant's thread. And I am sure you must know that it was Tango attempting to infiltrate the CA list in order to access the message archive.

What are your thoughts on that?

And by the way, when you discuss the CA's please remember to think about artistic talent as well as technical standards. You go on a lot about the CA's and you never seem to mention art, only tech.


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 36

spook

Mina >"the h2g2 Editors have decided that this activity is not eligible for a graphic as it is"

yet that does not matter, as there is also a group, with a quality werekitty made graphic, called the Terranic Army, which is madly active, has 60 or 70 members, a large number of conversations on the main page, on linked army pages, and in other threads around h2g2. over the last month, The Terranic Army home page conversation centre appeared as number one on the bussiest conversations list at least 3 times, perhaps more. the image for this can be found at http://www.tygx.org/first-small.bmp .

now, if you have a problem with popularity and it's eligbleness, then who are YOU to say it is not eligible?

Masvaleix>"The nanny-nature on h2g2 has to change as the italics left have enough on their hands."

the nanny nature has to change? does it now? well, it's the nanny nature that has stopped progress on h2g2. give us the power to have our own images blobbed, with the images have checks of standards by community artists, and we could work the scheme without any blimen editors! the CAs i have already been told, want more work, so running a scheme like this would give them that, and it wouldn't stop their artist work either.

now, this is just the first step of my master plan. perhaps we could form a commity of how to take things off the editors hands. i'm sure the community would get involved, as the community always should be run by the community, not by the editors. editors are strict, mean, biased and unfair, and this is shown in a number of evidence.

so, editors, this is your opportunity to leave things to the community. will you? most likely not. which makes your argument defunct. h2g2 does not need the editorial leadership, as that could be run by volunteers. in fact, there are a number of researchers who spend a lot more time on h2g2, are a lot more part of the community, and a lot friendlier.

you wnat to stop being nannys, then don't be short-minded and open up community art to the community.

Lil - you mention the Atled account to SEF, and let me just say that SEF knew about it yes. how many secrets do you have, which other people you know don't know? is it wrong to have a secret? and what are you accusing Tango of now? wanting to look at the message archive? why would he want to do that? why would you have a problem with that, unless you have something to hide?

the objectives do not matter. in fact, why not ask why Tango used an alternate account? well, why don't you? short-mindedness, is the answer.

the reason, well, at leats one of them, why Tango used an alternate account, is because he would not have been accepted otherwise due to the bias towards him from Mina, and the meanness and unfairness he has received from her.

us bugfinders are here to find bugs on h2g2. these bugs have extended much further then technical bugs, but into problems, problems with the editorial leadership of which some of us have faced. the change in leadership can either mean 2 things:

1. the leaership is improving and there will be a fairer editorial leadership who are flexible, and are willing to put in the extra few minutes to do a few little tasks to get an image from e-mail blobbed, the editor who enjoys the community and does there best to run it, so that us researchers have nothing to complain about

OR

2. H2G2 - R.I.P


the grave is already being dug. unless of course you plant flowers in the whole instead.

spook


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 37

Mina

"then who are YOU ...?"

Until the bold italics are turned off on my name, I'm the Community Editor of h2g2 spook.


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 38

SEF

Actually I didn't raise the subject, Lil. Look again.

Tango told the bugfinders group that he planned to become a CA and asked us not to ACE him. He wasn't explicit about exactly what he wanted other than obviously to look at the messages and inner workings himself. I checked that he wasn't doing it on my behalf as I didn't need him to do that. He said not. It seemed to me to be part of things he'd been thinking about on holiday as it wasn't the only such area being discussed and he'd come back to the site quite fired up. So I double-checked the rules for anything relevant and warned him that people wouldn't like it if/when they found out. He said he was aware of that.

It proved to be the case that a whole pack of people did indeed lay into him, failed to read what he said and deliberately misrepresented his position. That's the normal despicable behaviour of certain people on h2g2 from what I've seen over the past few months and in the backlog of several years. It is one of the nastiest aspects and biggest problems of the site and is implicitly and occasionally explicitly supported by the staff by misapplying rules, differentially applying rules and even pointing out targets in the volunteer groups.

"You go on a lot about the CA's and you never seem to mention art, only tech."

That's not true but I wouldn't expect you to be paying attention. Anyhow Mina brought up the issue of technical standards here.


Removed

Post 39

Tango

This post has been removed.


A962769 - The Spaced Out Guide Menu System

Post 40

spook

ain't it funny how the only thing i said you felt able to reply to, was who you were. you may be the community editor, yet i have not seen you do much to help the community, but have instead slowed down h2g2s process of evolution.

spook


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