A Conversation for Ask h2g2

World effects of ending the United Kingdom

Post 1

Spacial

The issue of Scotland leaving the UK has been in the news lately. Most of the issues so far have been about Scotland and if they are capable of governing themselves.

While I'm sure we all wish the Scots well, none of us, outside Scotland, has a vote. But the consequences for everyone else are potentially huge.


The UK, by definition, is a union of countries. England can choose to call itself the UK, but it just be an alternative name for a single state.

It might even attempt to claim N Ireland is a country, or attempt to reach some agreement with Wales to make it a separate entity. Seems unlikely in both cases. Wales will be in a position to demand almost anything.

That will, sooner or later, calls into question, the legitimacy of the UK itself and the right of a single country to adopt that term for itself.

The question of the UK's seat on the UN security council. Europe is represented twice. It causes enormous resentment, even in the US. Ending the UK could lead to a shake-up of the UN.

The UK is currently a member of the EU. If the union is abolished, will England, Wales and N Ireland find themselves having to reapply along with Scotland?

The UK forces have played a significant role in most America's overseas military adventures.

When the UK forces have been involved, America has invariable claimed victory. When they were not, in Vietnam, American got its bottom spanked. How will America fare with a large and significant chunk of its allied support gone?

The continued protection of various commonwealth states which currently have their security guaranteed by the UK. They each lack any military forces of their own.

Most of the Caribbean. Gibraltar, Falklands, St. Helena, Mauritius, Seychelles, Reunion, Nepal. I know I have forgotten at least 10 more, but you get the idea. How will these states maintain their own independence without the protection of the UK forces?


World effects of ending the United Kingdom

Post 2

swl

Tune in for next week's exciting episode when a cheese from Romford attempts to knit octopuses.


World effects of ending the United Kingdom

Post 3

Hoovooloo

Wow. Where to start...

"The UK, by definition, is a union of countries. England can choose to call itself the UK, but it just be an alternative name for a single state."

The UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is a union of four countries. If one of those countries leaves, it will be a union of three countries. I don't see a problem here.

"It might even attempt to claim N Ireland is a country"

And it would succeed in the attempt, because this is something we doctors call a "fact".

"or attempt to reach some agreement with Wales to make it a separate entity."

Why on Bod's earth would we do that? Wales is fine where it is. I don't see them asking for independence, or at least, I don't see any of the sane ones asking for that.

"Seems unlikely in both cases. Wales will be in a position to demand almost anything."

Wales would be in a position to demand nothing. Scotland has oil. Wales has sheep. Sheep are not in short supply elsewhere.

"That will, sooner or later, calls into question, the legitimacy of the UK itself and the right of a single country to adopt that term for itself."

It would, if the UK were a single country, but as we've established, it's not, and there's no earthly reason why it ever will be.

"The question of the UK's seat on the UN security council. Europe is represented twice."

So is Asia. What's your point here?

"It causes enormous resentment, even in the US."

Really? For whom? (Answers only count if they're countries that matter).

"Ending the UK could lead to a shake-up of the UN."

Wow. You have a massively inflated sense of the importance of the UK if you think any of the other 200+ UN members give a monkey's. And, as we've already established, there is absolutely no question here of "ending the UK". The Scots are voting on LEAVING the UK, and going it alone with their own currency, defence, etc. Good luck with that, [offensive word removed by moderators].

"The UK is currently a member of the EU. If the union is abolished, will England, Wales and N Ireland find themselves having to reapply along with Scotland?"

Short answer, no.

Longer answer, no, [offensive words removed by moderators]. The UK is a member. The UK will remain a member. Scotland, on leaving, will have to apply to join, and it's by no means certain that they'd be allowed in, especially as their deputy leader has threatened to default on their share of the UK's sovereign debt.

"The UK forces have played a significant role in most America's overseas military adventures."

Wow again. You really haven't been paying attention, have you? The UK forces have played a significant role in hardly any of the US's overseas interventions. Just the headliners, really. The US has its fingers in far more pies than you seem to be aware of.

"When the UK forces have been involved, America has invariable claimed victory."

Yeah, but the US invariably claims victory even when it's plain for everyone to see that they've royally [offensive word removed by moderators]up and LOST. See Afghanistan. 2001, Taliban in charge. 2015, Taliban in charge. In between, billions spend, thousands dead. Call that victory?

"When they were not, in Vietnam, American got its bottom spanked. How will America fare with a large and significant chunk of its allied support gone?"

ROFLCOPTER. Seriously? You consider the UK forces a "large and significant chunk" of support to the US?

You've never seen a UK aircraft carrier next to a US one, have you? The Ark Royal looks like something you'd play with in the bath next to the USS Abraham Lincoln.
The UK forces, compared to the US, are a gnat on the side of an elephant. They'd notice the complete absence of UK forces about as much as you'd notice losing a fingernail - a briefly painful mild inconvenience that would soon be forgotten.

"The continued protection of various commonwealth states which currently have their security guaranteed by the UK. They each lack any military forces of their own."

Protection from what?

"How will these states maintain their own independence without the protection of the UK forces?"

We are already unable to mount a task force such as that raised in 1982 to retake the Falklands. If Argentina invaded again now, we couldn't go and get them back. This has been the case for some time. Argentina, however, are not so stupid as to try, because to do so would make them international pariahs and that now matters to them.


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 4

Icy North

I can't really add anything to Hoo's analysis (nor, come to mention it, swl's)


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 5

Mr. X ---> "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

Nor can I. I would point out though that, while I cannot speak for my entire country, I don't personally feel nor have I observed any resentment whatsoever about Europe having two seats on the (permanent) U.N. Security Council. Why on earth should I?

Security Council does need to be changed though. It doesn't actually represent the modern power dynamics, and the whole veto vote thing was a big mistake. Should take at least two, maybe three of those to strike anything down.

smiley - pirate


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 6

Mr. X ---> "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

If, of course, it must continue to exist at all.

smiley - pirate


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 7

Otto Fisch ("Stop analysing Strava.... and cut your hedge")


It's an interesting question, what the wider ramifications of Scottish independence might be.

I'd imagine that a lot of other countries with regions where some people have aspirations for independence will be watching carefully. A 'yes' vote followed by stability and success would presumably be a major boost to independence claims elsewhere (Catalonia etc).

I also think that the SNP's version of nationalism that seems to me to be based around residency rather than ethnicity or cultural heritage is interesting, from the point of view of political philosophy. Nationalisms tend to be perched more or less securely at the top of a slippery slope with racism at the bottom, but a non-ethnic version is interesting. Might other independence movements learn from this, especially if it becomes a blueprint for success?

It's hard to imagine Scotland's departure not causing a major political realignment in the UK. Hard to know what that will look like, but it'll involve a swing to the right. That will affect foreign policy and relations with the EU/UN etc, but it's hard to know quite how that will play out.

Having said all that... the odds look fairly strongly against a 'yes' vote at the moment.


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 8

Spacial

There would appear to be little or no intellectual or research value to be had here.

I was under the impression that this was a research based forum, that is clearly wrong.

I am sorry I assumed that basic research, at least would be the norm.

I don't see anything to be gained, for you or I in my posting any further on this forum.

I can't see any way to close my account here.

I wish you all well.


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 9

Icy North

What did you mean by a research-based forum?

I think you're confusing Askh2g2 with the Edited Guide, which is a stylised, research-based, peer-reviewed repository of articles.

This is just where the researchers hang out and discuss things.


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 10

Otto Fisch ("Stop analysing Strava.... and cut your hedge")


Don't take anything Hoo says too much heart... he's largely here for an argument.


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 11

Peanut

Fisking a post isn't discussing things though

smiley - groan especially when it is done in a time old fashion and tips into ridicule to someone who is dropping by Ask


World effects of ending the United Kingdom

Post 12

paulh, not fond of Lord Mudpants

"'It causes enormous resentment, even in the US.'
'Really? For whom? (Answers only count if they're countries that matter).'"

I've been surrounded by USAians for more than six decades, and I've never heard any words of resentment about this from those around me. My friends and neighbors are more worried about the next snowstorm, or our property taxes, or what the smiley - bleep in the White House is doing than the relative merits of including this country or that in the Security Council or, for that matter, the European Union. Taiwan
might be miffed that mainland China has some memberships that Taiwan can't get, but that's about where it ends. I have friends who support Taiwan, but I think they understand reality.

"'When they were not, in Vietnam, American got its bottom spanked. How will America fare with a large and significant chunk of its allied support gone?'
'You consider the UK forces a *large and significant chunk* of support to the US?'"

Not a bad answer, but a better one might be that America might well have lost in Vietnam even with UK support. Some wars just don't go the way one hopes. Forty years later, there's still no sign of Vietnam occupying the U.S. and taking away our freedoms. We have the NSA for that! smiley - winkeye


World effects of ending the United Kingdom

Post 13

swl

Posting monumental balderdash and expecting to be taken seriously is my job though.


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 14

swl

<>

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/100077/partridge-shrug-o.gif


World effects of ending the United Kingdom

Post 15

paulh, not fond of Lord Mudpants

I think you deserve a raise. smiley - smiley


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 16

Hoovooloo

"There would appear to be little or no intellectual or research value to be had here."

You got that right. I'm baffled where you got your impression of this place from, though. Have you even READ any of the other threads here? Current popular subjects are "What can we blame 2legs for?", "Neighbouring threads with surreal connections" and "What's in your paste buffer?".

Basic research is the norm. Usually we use reality as the basis of that research, rather than some parallel universe where Wales holds the whip hand over England and Northern Ireland isn't a country.

And there is no way to close your account... just ask nighthoover... hang on. You're not nighthoover are you?


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 17

Peanut

oh, swl smiley - brokenheart

I was with you until post 14 and so looking forward to cheese knitted octopuses


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 18

Peanut

@ Hoo post 16

Ouch, harsh but I think there is more than a grain of truth in that,

still I think you didn't leave much open to discussion on this thread though did you, therefore not giving it chance to get to started

perhaps you could not to be quite so comprehensive shall we say?

smiley - cake


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 19

paulh, not fond of Lord Mudpants

"Basic research is the norm. Usually we use reality as the basis of that research, rather than some parallel universe where Wales holds the whip hand over England and Northern Ireland isn't a country" [Hoovooloo]

smiley - laughsmiley - rofl QOTW?

I have no quibble with using reality as a basis for research. Reality sometimes changes, though. I wish people would notice those changes when they happen, but...on second thought, I'd rather not notice the changes I see when I look in my mirror. smiley - tongueout


World effects of ending the United Kingdom?

Post 20

Peanut

Can I qualify my last post

I think there is more than a grain of truth in your first paragraph Hoo

The rest of your post and the tone of it, I don't subscribe to all

smiley - tea


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