h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"It's a uniquely human skill which enables us to get on with and cooperate with others. It gets things done" [Edward the Bonobo]

I doubt that it's uniquely human, but can't prove it. Have you ever had a German shepherd? They are said to have an eerie ability to feel their masters' pain. People who can't seem to feel much empathy may sometimes gravitate to creatures that can. I can imagine Mina being happy surrounded by German shepherds.

This gets me to a major point: If you're a soldier, feeling empathy for the enemy is a no-no. If you're a psychologist, feleing empathy for your patients is a must. So, success in your work life requires that you cultivate the right amount of empathy for your job.

I believe [but again, can't prove] that most people are capable of developing empathy. There are some who can't. At the extreme are sociopaths. At the other extreme are actors like Meryl Streep, who can put herself into roles with uncanny ability.

I feel a bit better now thank you.

I imagine you're all feeling happy you made me feel not so bad about myself.

How am I doing?

You're doing great!

depends have you got in the fridge, that would be really thoughtful

>>If you're a psychologist, feleing empathy for your patients is a must.

Is it though? Isn't it possible to deal with a patient whilst remaining detached? Surely you don't necessarily need to feel what they're feeling in order to analyse them.

I did a fair amount of psychotherapy and it went pretty deep..it was about the 'relationship'. I would have felt most uncomfortable if she had been empathising.She seemed to be in touch with her own feelings and listening to me explaining mine.
Empathy would have felt overstepping the boundary in that context. She was very sensitive and intelligent, and I don't quite know the word to use...empathy isn't it..certainly not sympathy..not detached..but a kind of awareness that felt very comfortable...and listening. I felt very safe with her. She seemed to know what was her and what was me.

They do this thing apparently a bit like 'debriefing' with another therapist to separate out their own shit from the stuff the client has.

They are very aware that it is all too easy to project your own stuff onto the other if you're so bent on empathy.

Other medical professionals that I've felt safe with seem to have this approach.

Had a convo on Z's space touching on this stuff. I really liked his approach which is a bit like what I've explained.

Empathy can be good...but still it can be tricky. Could be a bit semantics though.

impressed and happy

yes, there is a differance between being empathic, professionally and personally

>How am I doing? <

Who cares.

"Out of interest, how does drama work for you? Is it just people moving on a screen?"

Well, yeah. But then, so is real life.

Here's the best analogy I can think of:

I've read, and heard, people talking about jazz or classical music. Quite often, those people are people who can PLAY jazz and/or classical music. They understand it. They have an appreciation of the technical ins and outs, the structures, the rules, when the rules are being followed and when they're being creatively broken, when that works and when it doesn't, and so on. They are, clearly, getting a great deal more than I am out of listening to exactly the same sequence of sounds. That isn't to say I get nothing out of listening to those sounds - I'm not tone deaf (I think), and I enjoy some music more than others, so I have a sense of taste in that direction. But I'm aware that in certain genres of music, there's an ENORMOUS amount going on that goes completely over my head.

Exactly the same thing applies to people. I'm intellectually aware that there are things going on in their heads, but I entirely don't get it. Doesn't stop me enjoying a film, but it does often stop me appreciating nuances that others get. Bury a tiny visual clue early in a film, just a half dozen frames or so, and then do a callback to it later, and I'll spot it no problem, and indeed be baffled that everyone else didn't. Hint broadly at the inner life of one of the characters and have a payoff about it later, and I'll generally never see it coming. Which may be why I'm looking forward to Avengers Assemble and The Dark Knight Rises more than I am to anything more... subtle.

Is empathy feeling what others feel or understanding what others feel? I'm pretty good at the latter when I remember but not the former. Do people really feel what others are feeling? (Genuinely quite curious - I think I'd always rather assumed not).

I have a hard time believing there are totally insensitive
people who have no sense of empathy or remorse, but several
cases of complete sociopathic criminality make it clear that
it does occur in a minority (less than 1%) of our species.

Similarly some people have no sense of touch, feel no pain
or have varying degrees of ability and or deficiency in the
other senses - such as tone deafness, colour blindness, etc.

Sociopaths no doubt are an evolutionary aberration that from
time to time provide a good survival trait that inevitably does
good for a much greater number. Heartless killers and stone
cold assassins can and have actually benefited entire societies.


The idea of actors and acting has come and gone a few times
in this conversation and I'd just like to add that the very best
actors can and do empathise but then like Hoo they will suppress
these 'feelings' into an intellectual, detached and almost automatic
(conditioned reflex) set of behaviours that they can call upon and
spew forth on cue.

Several times over the years here I have often empathised with
Mina's dogs. They know what I mean. And little by little, they
are teaching her to be more human.

~jwf~

PS: This thread would be a good place to put in a plug for
the new Jane Goodall sponsored film 'Chimpanzee'.

I empathise loads with people on the telly, in floods of tears at the sad bits. But I can turn them off when I want to.

say hi!

Ook.

~jwf~

"Isn't it possible to deal with a patient whilst remaining detached? Surely you don't necessarily need to feel what they're feeling in order to analyse them." [Quotes]

Of course one can deal with a patient while remaining detached. Nevertheless, a clinician who can't *understand* what the patient is feeling is going to have a hard time. So, empathy in the sense of understanding is necessary.

I don't think sociopaths are necessarily as tiny as a minority as you might think jwf. There are presumably many of them who whilst not caring about others, presumably care about themselves enough to stay out of jail.

Apparently there is a section of society who don't know it, but have the same mindset as psychopaths. They are otherwise pretty normal, apart from being a bit 'detached'.

"Is empathy feeling what others feel or understanding what others feel?"

I think this is a really important distinction, and I wonder if I'd go further in distinctions about what we might mean by empathy:

The ability to feel what others feel. So... I feel actual pain or anguish at someone else's suffering. There's only a very small number of people for whom I would feel pain.

The ability to be concerned/worried and/or motivated to action by the suffering of others. For example.... I give money to disaster relief appeals, but although I think about their situation, it doesn't pain me. Also acquaintance, friends etc. This can still be a powerful worry or concern and may motivate strong action, but it's not a feeling in quite the same way.

The ability to understand why people are feeling/reacting in the way that they are, especially when we wouldn't feel/react in that way. Can you walk a mile in someone else's shoes? I guess this element is something like empathetic imagination.

The ability to read other people's moods and feelings from subtle clues and signs (emotional intelligence)

-----------

On sociopaths, there's a saying that poor sociopaths go to prison, rich ones go into business. Jon Ronson has written a really interesting book about psychopaths and sociopaths. Personally, I suspect that there's probably a sliding scale involved.

>> many of them who whilst not caring about others, presumably
care about themselves enough to stay out of jail. <<

Ah, but that's the point. They generally do care about their
own welfare but are totally incapable of understanding why
they should care for anyone else. It is hard to believe but
people like Hannibal Lecter do exist. When tested for their
understanding of concepts like love, charity, compassion,
social responsibility, friendship and other 'humanising' traits
they get confused and agitated and score a perfect zero.

They are like blind men reading an eye chart who can't even
see the wall it's hanging on.

They are very rare. Many lesser sociopaths can at least fake
their responses and provide insincere and ingenuous responses
which they know are more socially acceptable. Unhappily, the
tests are not quite sophisticated enough to measure their
degree of dissembling.

And as you point out, they show at least some comprehension
that certain responses may be helpful in gaining sympathy
for their own situation and perhaps result in a lesser sentence
or even keep them out of jail or a psychiatric facility. They
know how to elicit guilt and sympathy in others but feel none.


~jwf~

"On sociopaths, there's a saying that poor sociopaths go to prison, rich ones go into business. Jon Ronson has written a really interesting book about psychopaths and sociopaths. Personally, I suspect that there's probably a sliding scale involved." [Otto Fisch]

Are you talking about "The Psychopath test." I started reading it, but didn't finish it because it was getting kind of depressing.