h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting

This is quite a good article I thought - I particularly liked the point in the comments that it is possible to condemn the actions of those involved and ensure law enforcement AND think about why it might have happened. It's not an either or.

The government seems not to have quite understood that yet.

sprout

I basically agree with you. But it's sort of symbolic of protecting the fundamental structure of society..which in our case is capitalism

And it might be shops today..but it could easily be houses 'tomorrow'. People will be getting a taste for being destructive..and dehumansing.

And this thing might just be something that errupts periodically now.

A bit of an aside. I talk a lot about sport here. When I was adolesecent and full of a lot of fairly destructive energetic feelings..it was good to be able to channel all that in a very structured way. You could really let off steam but it was entirely safe as 'rule bound' (Though it wasn't entirely straightforward because my school was a bit old fashioned..and the will to win was viewed a bit ambivalently. But the principle was that it afforded a way when people are adolescent and full of a lot of anger and rebellion often to express that energy safely.

Adolescents are full of a lot of energy..and often anger. That should be faced.

Take off and nuke the place from orbit - it's the only way to be sure.

"1055: BBC Monitoring Libyan foreign ministry spokesman Khalid Ka'im has called on world governments to take action over the unrest in the UK. David Cameron has lost legitimacy and "must go", Libya's official news agency Jana reports. Libya "demands that the international community not stand with arms folded in the face of this gross aggression against the rights of the British people, who are demanding its right to rule its country", the report said."

From BBC rolling news ticker

Brilliant, just brilliant. Has made my day!

FB

Yes it is funny.

But it's also good to look at the complexities. I like a lot of what Dogster has posted.

I certainly wouldn't want to be a young person in today's stupid celebrity culture. It seems fairly obvious that education standards are now fairly simplistic. It's about stuffing young people's heads full of facts..rather than uses those creatively such as when I was young. There's a lot of mronicness around now coming from the way the state treats the young.

We have a diet also of recent times about politicians' behaviour over 'expenses' Increadible amounts of ordinary people's money is spent bailing out the banks. Areas like mine will suffer with all the cuts. People become cynical and disenchanted about what our politicians are up to. And then suddenly money is found to bomb Libya...to protect civilians...oh yeah. didn't we kill a lot the other day 'accidently'?. But we need the oil to carry on with the status quo.

Cameron is a symbol of how things are now with people who are running the country.

I don't entirely find what's said hysterically funny.

Yeah I doubt these youngters people rationally think about this stuff. They haven't been educated for it.

But they've been handed the deal to grow up here at this time. i wouldn't want that deal.

And of course originally Thatcher smashed communities..and people lost a lot of meaning in their lives. People lost structure in their lives..so once that happens bringing up kids to respect community is lost..if the communities have been smashed and vast amounts of people are on incapacity benefit.

Oh well I'll shut up now with this ramble...

Dontcha just hate when people can't spell "lose"?

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

An e-petition reading "Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits.

Responsible department: Department for Work and Pensions

Any persons convicted of criminal acts during the current London riots should have all financial benefits removed. No tax payer should have to contribute to those who have destroyed property, stolen from their community and shown a disregard for the country that provides for them."

58290 signatures

Why do you keep pointing out 'funnies' swl?

is it 'I'm all right Jack' in Glasgow? It's not happening here.

But don't let me stop you.

Hopefully Dogster will reappear at some point.

Related to SWL's post, have you seen how badly the various riot organising messages are spelt and punctuated? If we could radically enforce the use of proper English across all social media, would this not in itself lead to the restoration of law and order?

And it would win the police valuable time as the looters have to tap out long words like 'constable' and 'defenestration' with their thumbs.

No?

sprout

my brother in law after hearing that such unlawfull activities might spread to blackpool (how they would tell the difference between the riots and normal nights out i don't know) offered to help us "protect" our shop,
we live in one of the sleepy little villages outside blackpool I don't think riots would happen here, and after a quick look over our insurance documents and the local news (there are no riots in blackpool or near by unless you count manchester) we're quite fine,

interestingly in case of riots our insurance covers us for breakages but not theft.... so they can destroy or stock but they better keep it in the shop to do so

Sol, apparently Afflecks is fine, on Twitter (not that this is a solid source, you understand) Starfox188 has just tweeted 'Well just been to afflecks and it seems fine, no signs of forced entry through any doors...'

"If we can accept that the Daily Hate inflames right wingers with lies and exaggerations, is it not plausible that left wingers could be outraged by lies & exaggerations in the Indy?"

In this case... no. Pretty much all of the initial reports in all media talk of an exchange of fire. This from the Daily Hate:

"But Duggan, a known offender from London’s notorious Broadwater Farm Estate, became aware that he was being followed and opened fire on the officers. He shot the officer from Scotland Yard’s elite firearms squad CO19 in the side of his chest with a handgun. The bullet lodged in the police radio that the undercover officer was carrying in a side pocket."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022670/Gangster-Mark-Duggan-shot-police-London-cab-shootout.html

All of the news reports said this - it's not something made up by the Indie. If the Indie were a rabble-rousing leftie version of the Hate, they'd hardly make up a story about the *victim* shooting at the *police*. And they'd have led the article with a sympathetic picture of the victim - the opposite of what the Hate have done, incidentally.

Why did all the reports say that the police had been fired upon? We can't be sure, but the most likely explanation, is, er, that that's what the Met's press office told them all.

It now looks like the bullet in the radio was a ricochet. I guess it's possible that the officer hit by the ricochet might have thought he was fired upon... fog of war, and all that. But even then, police must surely have known that he didn't fire first. Given the inglorious history of the Met in terms of dubious press briefings, I'm not sure they're entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

That's just speculation Otto. There's no direct quote from the Met anywhere (that I've seen) that says Duggan fired. Media hysteria that the Indy was a part of.

Mind you, that Mail piece is outrageous. Perhaps questions need to be asked about the role of the media in fanning the flames during riots.

Is it just speculation?

All the news reports carry the same or similar version of events. Where did that version of events - that we now know to be wrong - come from? If not the Met, then where did that story come from?

In the absence of any credible alternative source, it's hard not to conclude it was the Met.

There's a serious piece of expectation-setting that needs to take place regarding the capabilities of the police.

They will not be able to protect everyone's property.

They will not be able to apprehend large and well organised groups of looters with state-of-the-art communication links, local knowledge and guerilla tactics (probably gained from a short lifetime honing their art using video games)

They will do their best to apprehend dangerous suspects, but occasionally the operation will go awry and they'll shoot first

They will do their best to contain peaceful protest marches infiltrated with known troublemakers, but only by treating everyone within the kettle as a potential troublemaker.

They are human beings too. The policeman's lot is not a happy one, and they get frustrated. If they're carrying a baton at the time, then anyone who repeatedly insists on coming within range of it may get hit.

swl,

What Otto said - all the papers had the same story. The Independent leader I looked at yesterday said that they were unofficially briefed by the Met, and I guess the other papers too.

If that's true, then someone should be sacked and/or prosecuted. Made easier no doubt by a media who know *exactly* who briefed them, no?

Here's "Winston Smith" and his take on things (he's a blogger who works in the field of youth offenders)

http://winstonsmith33.blogspot.com/2011/08/riots-in-london-are-culmination-of.html

"One thing is clear to me about these riots that set them apart from the race riots of the eighties, or those of the late sixties/early seventies in the aftermath of state suppression of civil rights marches in Northern Ireland and it is that these disturbances are not political in nature, or as a result of one ethnic group feeling disenfranchised. This is a rainbow coalition of the underclass, all shades and colours are present on the streets. If it was political in nature the main targets of the rioters would be the state and whilst the police are being attacked the perpetrators are more concerned with acquiring the contents of high street shops. These riots are purely criminal and materialistic in nature and it is the state and its failed social policies that have bred the savage and feral mentality of the perpetrators"

'This is a rainbow coalition of the underclass. . . '


I was just talking about this last night (from the safety of the colonies). I remarked that unlike many Western countries, Canada doesn't yet have a *vast* underclass. Our silly, short-lived hockey riots and Canada Day riots have been largely the products of fairly comfortable young men being stupid with drink in a crowd. Our underclass is still small enough that it's fairly easy to keep suppressed.


Just an observation. It doesn't help the present situation any.

In the words of rapper Plan B: "They're only rioting to get free stuff".

What goes against the underclass line is that the first person in front of the courts today was reportedly a 31 year old schoolteacher.