h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The_Ambiguos,

And not an unreasonable expectation to not be subjected to smoke as a non smoker, but like i said, why not compromise? non smoking pubs/restaurants and the like aswell

Other places people work is down to the employer, he/she may choose to provide a room for smokers in their break or may not, not much you can say about that as it is down to them afterall but Public Houses? Come on, are smokers really being so unreasonable??

The only good i can see out of this ban is you'd hope future generations of young people wont take up this habit, and nobody could critisize the logic in that but for those of us that are hooked i still dont believe it is unreasonable to go to the pub for a drink and a smoke, and as Woodpigeon knows **waves** Hiya WP, see you've found this thread too, i sincerely hope it doesnt kill off an already failing tourist industry in Ireland, or wherever else this ban leads....

Just to pick up on 1 point...

"It is liberal in the sense that you can do what you want as long as it doesn't harm others".

So should we also ban drinking alcohol? Driving any vehicle just in case we cause an accident?
Extreme Sports? Well hey you might land accidently on a member of the public, Going outside your front door in a bad mood?..Yes ridiculous examples but this is ridiculous, if its a smoking pub there are plenty of Barstaff who are smokers and vice versa....

Increase Mathers,
Yes well im obviously the 'unofficial' unofficial keeper of the smiley lol I tend to use it freely to express myself when im on 1...
true, governments must address each issue in turn or use an issue to win a political campaign!, for example; 1 'issue' Blairs party used when running for his campaign was to ban foxhunting a.s.a, still waiting for that to happen,
**oh look is that a flying pig i see**
I guess he's been very busy with Bush the people as per about why we needed a war we didnt have the money for but miraculously found, Come to think of it, im still off about why we had to pay for a state visit for that warmongering but thats for another day another thread and that comment would lead you to believe i think more of Blair than i do of Bush, i have no favourites they are both a pair of lying
We'll have to agree to disagree about the reasons we believe are behind the ban on smoking
We are sitting at opposite ends of the table over this 1 I.M, but that doesnt mean i cant see the sence in some of whats been said, i just feel a compromise should be reached rather than an outright ban, Yes its a filthy habit, Yes we shouldnt do it but theres a lot of things we shouldnt do, its easy for non smokers to see this in black and white but it isnt and i dont feel that this is the right way to go, if somebody took away your right to do something im sure you would have plenty to say about it too

p.s./ What does [IMSOP] mean?

Xanatic,

I dont live in Ireland myself but i get there as often as i can and what happens there is important to me and my family, as i said in a previous post, i sincerely hope it doesnt affect the tourist industry...

I completely agree with you, shouldnt it be up to the Landord/Landlady/Owner of an establishment as to whether they want smokers there or not?! What happens if they are smokers themselves? Are they not allowed to smoke on their property anymore?

Nope! Isn't it great!

It's people like you, IV, who are helping to kill us all.

Killing me softly,
with his smoke . . .

Kea,

"I think the reason that there aren't more smoke free bars and pubs is because the owners know dont know aout us lot that don't go to pubs because of the smoke".

I think then that you have been let down, there is clearly a gap in the market but you cant blame current owners of pubs and bars for this, generally if it makes good business sence where they are they would most likely of tried it, and i think it was Yourself that said previously, attempts had been made in the past to provide a smoke free area by having a couple of tables without ashtrays, clearly this is inadequate but again this is neither down to the Proprietor or something you can blame smokers for, it is probably because not enough of you are shouting loud enough or spending money in the places you can go to...

Im for compromise, but that was a bad example

Hi Woodpigeon,
Longterm sure but i think Ireland 'will' kill off more of its tourist industry, easy for a non smoker to say, 'a ban is the right way to go' but i disagree with an outright ban, i still believe compromise is right, if the pubs start losing trade as a result they will probably feel the same...
If there was such a high demand for non smoking bars why did they go out of business?!
Im sure it is not as high a majority as you think, (though i wouldnt dispute i could be wrong about that), that pubs 'had' to allow smoking on their premises, i think a Businessman/womans priority is whats going to get the customers in not whether they are pro/against smoking and as i said with compromise, if the demand really is there, you can have smoking/non smoking Barstaff too...
"It's coming to a cinema/bar/bookies near you soon"!
I didnt know you could smoke at the cinema in Ireland?

Milchflasche,

Im going to assume your post was directed at me and respond accordingly, whilst the rave didnt need to include other issues it did, ive posted it now so i cant take it back but it wasnt about being 'anti-immigrant', the point i was trying to make was the government isnt being truthful with us, nothing new there for any of us regardless of where we are from or what newspaper we read!, but they are claiming they are concerned about our health, if that is so then there are many other issues they ought to be dealing with but they are not for their own reasons - money! Lets face it, our governments dont hold the value of life very highly at all

Incidentally and for the record, the opinons, rightly or wrongly were my own, and not that of a tabloid newspaper, i have never purchased the Daily Mail and doubt very much i ever will

GodBen,
People like me, GodBen? lol
I think its more likely Factory Owners, Farmers using chemicals, (and dare i say it? GMFoods hmm who knows what damage that could do later down the line)?, and car drivers will do you more harm than i ever could
I noticed 1 of your posts said since the ban smokers have taken to the streets, this is something i dont like and consciously choose not to do for various reasons...
"Killing me softly, with his smoke"
by Roberta Flack?? nice, dont think ive heard that version though lol by the way 'his' smoke, by all means have a little pop at me, your more than welcome i honestly dont mind, but can you say 'her' smoke, that 'his' is making me feel a little uncomfortable

I was just quoting a parody of a song.

And what I said was that smokers had gone outside, not that they had taken to the streets. Sorry about any confusion cause there.

No, you can't smoke at cinemas but I wanted badly to use the phrase "coming to a cinema near you"!

Just to explain why non-smoking pubs go out of business : Smoking is a funny thing: (not funny , funny ) in that when you smoke, you like getting a chance to smoke, even if you know that it is bad for you long-term. (I am speaking as an occasional smoker myself). Non-smoking bars are uneconomic because many of us are like that. Even though we all think they are a good idea, if there was a choice between a non-smoking bar and a smoking bar, we would choose the latter. Also, smokers are a high enough proportion of the population to ensure that if you are meeting up with friends, that you would tend to indulge your smoking friends and go to pubs where smoking is allowed in order to have a good time. It might not be very rational, but it's the way we are wired. Thus, non-smoking pubs tend to be uneconomic if they have to compete with pubs that allow smoking. This all changes if you make it a law that all pubs must be non-smoking. Then they all compete on a level playing field.

There was an article in the paper on how the amount of assaults has gone up after the ban. And something like 50% of the people asaulted said they just went out to smoke. Though how many that was before I don't know.

With your clarification I see what you were getting at now! And I certainly agree that they indulge in a fair amount of hypocrisy and sometimes even downright lies.

I'd rather the Government did something beneficial to help people with nicotine addictions rather than outlaw their behaviour. This would probably be a better long term solution.

GodBen,

i know lol and no confusion just a different choice of word, but quite right you did say gone outside, begging your pardon lol

Hi Woodpigeon,

Ahh yes well now that phrase makes sence now lol When you mentioned cinema's that did throw me

"If there was a choice between a non-smoking bar and a smoking bar, we would choose the latter".

If there was a choice, but non smokers are saying they want a smoke free environment so would they generally choose the latter? im not sure i agree with that WP, but i do think they should have the choice if they want it, as should we, the filthy smokers of this world lol

"Thus, non-smoking pubs tend to be uneconomic if they have to compete with pubs that allow smoking".

But isnt the argument here from non-smokers that there is a demand for non-smoking pubs? So blaming the lack of them on smoking pubs for them being uneconomic doesnt make sence, if the demand really is there, if non smokers want non smoking pubs they'll use them, if they didnt in the past then i dont believe it is because they prefered a smokers pub, its been stated before that people like particular pubs for lots of reasons but if non-smokers havent used the non-smoking pubs that they say they want, then Businessmen/woman will pull out, regardless of who the pub up the road entertaining...

Milchflasche,

Glad i could clear that up for you

As far as the government helping people with their nicotine addiction is concerned, i can only speak for myself here in the UK...

I have approached my Doctor, (this 1 and the previous as i have since relocated), asking for help, i told him i would like given the choice hynotherapy, i was offered nicotine patches, 1 months supply only and was given clear instructions, 'If you dont quit after these your not getting any more'! I now have a new Doctor, he has told me i can attend a counselling group....

"Hello, My name is ............... and im a .... smoker"! I can talk about it to anyone, I have no problem whatsoever about that but talking about it is not going to help me quit!
Outlawing it is not going to shame me into quitting either, i know its a filthy habit and id tell anyone for numerous reasons why they shouldnt start but i am a smoker, and i like having a social drink and a ciggerette in a pub, I have no quarrel banning it in other public places but i object to the pub!

In any case does outlawing something once acceptible really work? dont even get me started on the answer to that

Interestingly, the ban has had a few other effects which are quite interesting. First of all, because people are going outside for a smoke there is actually a lot of banter and conversation taking place amongst people who wouldn't have known each other previously. Then there are the fag-butts, which are now everywhere (many of the pubs were not fast enough to get planning permission for outside ashtrays, and there is still an attitude around that fag-butts are not litter ). Thirdly, it has been discovered that the whiff of tobacco was effective in masking other smells - particularly the carpets of pubs, which pong something awful. Pub-owners will have some further renovations to do.

I was in a local pub last night and I didn't see smaller numbers of people there.

Woodpigeon

Are you aloud to leave a niteclub to have a smoke then?

Don't know - I think so. They'll probably start using the luminous dye-stamp that is commonly used in the US for places with cover-charges.

IV: >>I think then that you have been let down, there is clearly a gap in the market but you cant blame current owners of pubs and bars for this, generally if it makes good business sence where they are they would most likely of tried it, and i think it was Yourself that said previously, attempts had been made in the past to provide a smoke free area by having a couple of tables without ashtrays, clearly this is inadequate but again this is neither down to the Proprietor or something you can blame smokers for, it is probably because not enough of you are shouting loud enough or spending money in the places you can go to...<<

NZ's curent legislation says that all public places like restaturants have to provide a smoke free area. What most places do is provide smoke free tables which is next to useless in alot of cases. This most certainly is down to individual proprietors as they took one look at the law and figured out how to comply with the least they could get away with, at the same times as ignoring the intent of the law which was to protect people from secondhand smoke.

So, ten years later we are getting proper smokefree legislation that bans smoking in all indoor public places period. I think smokers in general had their chance at compromise in the last decade.

The other point that is pretty hard to get around is that smoking bans are in large part to protect workers. You can't failry have a smoking establishment unless you advertise for workers that smoke, and there are all sorts of legal and ethical difficulties with doing that.


Another point worth considering - not everyone live in big cities where there is a choice of pubs to go to. I've lived in places where there is only one pub for miles, so the idea that the market will ensure smoke free pubs and bars doesn't work.

Woodpigeon,

"because people are going outside for a smoke there is actually a lot of banter and conversation taking place amongst people who wouldnt have known each other previously".

comeraderie amongst the outcast? lol im willing to bet €5 i know what their conversations are about...

1./its freezing out here!
2./look at those smug in there!
3./lets burn the pub's patio tables, theyve got an open fire inside!
4./theres nothing worse than a preachy ex smoker! (no im not pointing the finger at anyone here lol)
5./i vote we all go down the 'offy and round to Daves.... 'em

Woodpigeon, as far as im concerned 'fag-butts' are just as discusting on the street as any other litter! i never smoke outside in the street, but i dont want to turn into a bl**dy hermit either!