A Conversation for Ask h2g2

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 361


Id like to note the recent case of the mother locked up for two child fatalilties and then releases. One of the main things that convinced the jury, was an 'expert' statistic that the chances of two babies dying of cot death were one in 7 million (I cannot remember the exact figure). What the jury were not told was that the chances of a mother killing both her sons was one in a billion (again I cannot remember the correct figure). The jury took the 'one in 7million' figure to mean that it was a one in 7 million chance that she didnt do it. This figure was also proven wrong at a later point anyway...

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 362

arwen, doing nasty essays. being a student should *not* involve work!

if this is the case i'm thinking of, which it may not be, becuawse i'm sure you would have mentioned this, the prosecuting medical expert neglected to mention that one of the children killed showed signs of meningitis during the post mortem. when this came to light and she was released, he said 'it was not my duty to get someone off' or something along those lines. what about his duty to do his job properly, and declare all evidence? i have heard someone say that his friend, a medical expert, is paid exorbiant sums of money, by either side, to give the evidence that counsel want to hear. this cannot be right.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 363

NYC Student - The innocent looking one =P

Been trying to read as much of the backlog as is possible, but here's my two cents anyway:

A national ID "smart" card would make identity theft easier as well as paving the way for more stringent policing and pseudo-policing by private corporations, which limits your own privacy and anonymity. Why would you want anonymity? Why would you want whomever to know your bank balance, your recent book purchases, your police record? As it is, we are already (as proven by the proliferation of identity cards now) insitutionalized more than we are communitarian. I go to the same buildings, the same shops over and over and over, for years on end, and they still turn me back if I forgot my card. I blush sheepishly as the video store clerk looks over my rental history. My library is under pressure to divulge my book selections to the new "anti-terror" police.

With the Bush administration as it is, especially with the Patriot Act, its addendum, and the case for Total Information Awareness, paranoia doesn't say the half of it. I look up WE or STEAL THIS BOOK at the library or pick up a copy of 2600 at a magazine shop and already I'm on a database of suspected instigators. My online habits are marked, my frequenting of 'criminal' websites is marked, I'm on an FBI list. My police records are pulled, searched with a fine-tooth comb. It's as simply as that. *I* know I'm a fairly decent, harmless person, and I'd like to send that message to the people I'm interacting with, *without* a card with its own database(s) attached to it getting to them before me. They'll never know me, and I deal with too many faceless bureaucracies already in this world.

Megan's Law, for instance, is controversial in itself, source of constant debate, and it's very narrow in scope. Why open the floodgates? For convenience? Don't make me laugh. Joe Hazelwood, fall guy for Exxon Valdez back in '89, had his police records broadcasted so Exxon wouldn't have to face the blame. He wasn't drinking, but his police records showed a DWI years back. Great for Exxon, poor him.

Sure, I'll trust my government, but the government will have to prove itself to me, not the other way around. Not when big business lobbyists and corporate media networks have more say than me. After all, who benefits from national IDs? American Express, Visa, Mastercard; the GOP, old money with xenophobic tendencies. American Indians need Federal ID cards because their ethnicity benefits from a $300 college scholarship. They're the only ethnicity that needs to have an ID in this country, and that is most certainly NOT convenient.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 364

abbi normal "Putting on the Ritz" with Dr Frankenstein

smiley - cracker *Stands and applauds loudly* smiley - cracker

I have links to the Patriot Act and the Total Information Act on my page if anyone wants to read them.smiley - grr The main stream press does not explain them thoroughly enough! smiley - yuk

smiley - disco

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 365

Ancient Brit

The start of an annual countdown.
I may not make it. smiley - smiley

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 366

Ancient Brit

Two links of interest:-
Home Office document - Identity Cards the Next Step
Takes a little time to download.

A users experience :- F98406?thread=343994&latest=1#p4392780

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 367


Whats the problem? Paying 40 quid for another `Licence`.
Its a Tax by any other name.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 368


That for sure and a general distrust of Governments and their motives.

Your papers please

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 369

Ku'Reshtin (Bring the beat back!)

The author of that entry was right.
Once again, I'll state that there are some things here in the UK that I just don't get, like checking the age of someone going into a pub.

Just this Friday, I was asked what my age was when trying to get into a pub. That was the first time in four and a half years that I'd been asked that. That's all weel and good, but I answered "28" and the bouncer just replied with a "okay" and then let me in. What if I had been 17, but still said 28? That would have meant that I wouldn't be allowed to drink any alcohol, but they'd still let me in. That would be their licence to serve that was on the line. I wouldn't have cared less.
Also, it's illegal to sell tobacco products to people under a certain age. In Sweden, they can verify that by asking for an ID card. If you can't show it, you're not getting your smokes. It's as simple as that.
What's used in the UK? I'm asking, cause I don't smoke and I've neveer tried buying cigarettes.

It may be your right, if you're over a certain age, to buy tobacco or alcohol, but if it's regulated by law, there has to be some way to verify that you're actually old enough. If you're underage, you don't have that right. An ID card with your birth date on it would be the best way to check.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 370

Queex Quimwrangler (Not Egon)

"A national ID "smart" card would make identity theft easier"

I'm not sure. Identity theft is pretty easy as it stands. I don't think it's feasible to stop identity theft completely, but you can make it more difficult to forge ID. An identity card has to be less easily forged than a driving license or a bank statement (which are often used to prove identity).

As for whether police will use the information they have access to sensibly- there's no guarantee of that. There are high profile cases where police have acted improperly but mostly they're just doing the best job they can. Police can already get all kinds of information as part of an enquiry (such as bank statements and phone logs) and an ID card doesn't really extend what they can find out. I don't see that there's any additional danger.

I don't really object to an ID card because I can see many advantages. As far as privacy goes I'm far more concerned with computer spam and spyware. Police have legitimate uses for personal information but advertisers do not.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 371

Ku'Reshtin (Bring the beat back!)

A laminated photo drivers licence is the most used type of ID card in Sweden. That's the only typ of drivers licence there is in Sweden, and they're not really easily forged, with them having a hologram and stuff on the face of it.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 372

NYC Student - The innocent looking one =P

The funny thing here is that the age limit was lowered to 18 for drinking because of soldiers complaining in the Vietnam War that they could die for the country, but couldn't get a drink. And, of course, now it's all been raised to 21 again because of the unbelievably large amount of bad drivers out there.

As for the National ID, I stand by what I say - I don't trust my government (especially the current one) enough to curtail my privacy in the name of convenience.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 373

Queex Quimwrangler (Not Egon)

I wouldn't trust the current US administration with a burnt out match.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 374

Ancient Brit


ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 375

The Doc

National ID cards? Alright, they could be good for proving your age in pubs or buying smokes or other adult legalised drugs, but would I have one?

Absolutely never ever. I point blank refuse to carry a paranoia inspired piece of plastic with potentially my DNA, retina scan, finger print or whatever other biometric data "They" choose to file you under.

I am not a criminal. I have no police record. I pay my taxes, I have been in full employment since leaving school at 16 and I have the obligatory 2.1 kids and dog style suburban family. That - as far as I see it - is ALL they need to know.

I do not want "Them" to know everything about me, where I go, where I shop, what I read, what I do on the Internet. IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS - and it certainly is laughable to suggest it will stop Terrorism.

"Sorry mate, cant plant that bomb there with out showing me your ID card"

There once was a programme on in the sixties called "The Prisoner"
In it, the prisoner fought against the system because he did not want to be "Stamped, numbered, filed, breifed, de-breifed". He was a free man, NOT a number.
To everyone who whinge "If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear" I have this to say: WAKE UP YOU MORONS

I will never ever under any circumstances carry an ID card. I would honestly rather go to jail.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 376

Ancient Brit

Almost three years on from my first post on this thread and my first on h2g2 for that matter.
You'll see I'm still here.smiley - ok
My views on ID cards haven't changed but which button to press is another matter.smiley - biggrin
Happy new year to everyone and I mean everyone. smiley - cracker

PS. ID cards are a step nearer. Let's hope that they link to the 'Freedom of Information Act.
No Ste. this is not another attempt to start it off again.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 377

badger party tony party green party

Well AB you also created the only thread where I agree with the Doctor, now that is really something to celebratesmiley - bubbly

one love smiley - rainbow

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 378


Hi, happy New year .
I get rather worried about those who feel comfortable with the idea of ID cards. I don't see myself as paranoid, just realistic.
The proposed ID card is a piece of interactive technology it contains streamlined personal information and intimate characteristic of us all. This is linked to the state machine and accessible at the touch of a button. Its the biggest threat to privacy and personal freedom yet.
There is no evidence from other countries that ID cards have any particular benefits at all.
The system is open fraud and to abuse. Officials will use the information to discriminate and harass at leisure .
Imagine the massive inconvenience caused if it were lost or stolen or if the biometric technology fails to read it.
Personal freedom, freedom of thought, free will and equality are at risk.

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 379

Ancient Brit

I can't remember who said what on this thread but my position hasn't changed.
It looks very much as though UK citizens are going to be issued with ID cards without any form of inducement as put forward tongue in cheek in post 1. smiley - smiley

It is the act of issuing the cards that will reveal fraud, unearth the faceless ones who are robbing the system blind, and give criminals, terrorists and illegal immigrants something to think about. The process of issuing/renewing should be ongoing it's a systematic search.
The real problem is the uses to which the cards will be put.
Your own unique card with your own unique ID number what could be more innocent than that. smiley - biggrin

ID Cards - What's the problem ?

Post 380

I am Donald Sutherland

Putting the Civil Liberties argument to one side for a moment, the introduction of ID Cards is a disaster in the making.

The British Government, any Government, not just this one, have never introduced an IT project and got it right first time. Without exception, every project they have got involved in has been late, over-budget and failed to live up to expectations. I don't see any possibility of this one being any different that the consequences are likely to be far more disastrous.

I have a full driving license but I have never passed a driving test. I passed a driving test on a motor cycle in 1969 and ended up with a full license due to the chaos caused by computerization of the DVLC Swansea.

I carried an ID card for 22 years in the Armed Forces. You can count on one hand the number of times I was asked to produce it and most if not all of them where in non-military situations. I could have achieved the same objective with a Driving License - a driving license with incorrect information on it.

One of the reasons for ID Cards is that it will aid in the fight against terrorism. But they are not going to be compulsory till 2012. So what do we do between now and the - let terrorists run wild because in 2012 we will all be carrying a bit a plastic that will stop them.

Another reason is that it will hep stop Social Security fraud. It is estimated to cost £40 million to set up the ID cards, a cost that is bound to rise, not to mention ongoing costs. Social security fraud cost £8 million a year. Doesn't seem to me to be a very cost effective way of tackling that problem.

How will it stop illegal immigrants. Immigrants need documents now, but that still manage to get in. While there are people prepared to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants, the absence of an ID card isn't going to stop them.

Most Law enforcement agencies say that ID Cards wont help in law enforcement. Identity is not a problem, it gettting the evidence and an ID card wont help there. The Police in the UK already have the power to arrest anyone who they believe is giving a false identity. A forged ID card will just make it easier to get away with it.

The reasons for introducing ID Cards have as much veracity as the reason for invading Iraq in relation to WMDs.


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