A Conversation for Ask h2g2

oh!

Post 15021

Gnomon - time to move on

Giant Canadian Honkers!

Try typing that into Google smiley - smiley


oh!

Post 15022

Maria



Hi, Gnomon,

I only find birds!!


oh!

Post 15023

Gnomon - time to move on

It was a joke. It sounds extremely suggestive, but in fact returns only birds.


oh!

Post 15024

Maria



Naughty boy!!!




smiley - cheers


oh!

Post 15025

turvy (Fetch me my trousers Geoffrey...)

A growler in West Yorkshire is a small (snack sized) pork pie. I've also heard the iceberg usage.

t.


oh!

Post 15026

Wand'rin star

I think a growler was also a type of horse-drawn cab, but I've no idea if it growled or the passengers did.
smiley - starsmiley - star


oh!

Post 15027

Maria

Look at what I've found:

growlery, noun ( Dutch, grollen= to grumble)

" a retreat for times of ill humour. This term has largely become obsolete, which is strange, given that so many people seem to have a place to go when they are in a bad mood - a place to be alone and think (...)"

Found in http://phrontistery.info/ihlstart.html


***

Could you say a synonym expression for "pay lip service to" and "catch 22"

smiley - smiley


oh!

Post 15028

~ jwf ~ scribblo ergo sum

>> Could you say a synonym expression for "pay lip service to" and "catch 22" <<

Mar,
There is an unintended obscurity to your question caused by the use of the word 'could'. I'm sure most of us are confused as to whether you are asking for clarity and examples of synonyms for those two phrases or using 'could' in a rhetorical way. It even might seem that you think these two expressions are related somehow. As far as I know they are not.

In any case I think it is unusual for entire phrases to be considered as synonyms; at least I think of synonyms as pairs of single words that mean the same thing. I don't think there is a term for phrases that say essentially the same thing in another way.

However, to express "pay lip service to" in a different way might be "to appear to agree, or to condone, or to pay observance, or to go along with" some premise or set of rules, regulations, laws, beliefs or protocols. The degree of insincerity is difficult to ascertain depending on the context. One may or may not be consciously deceitful or self deceiving.

For example, one might say they obey the law in all regards but then regularly speed above posted limits or cheat on taxes. Or, one might attend church services to give the appearance of being a devout believer while secretly sceptical of the whole religion thing. I believe the expression actually does come from the latter example where persons attend church and go through the motions - prayers and hymn singing (ie: they move their lips at the service) - while not actually believing any of it.

A 'Catch 22' comes from the title of a black comic novel about US airmen in a bomber squadron in WW2. A 'catch' is a 'snag' or unexpected interference with a plan or action, usually in a negative sense of someone not revealing all the details of a situation or contract (the fine print) until one has committed to action. Like, for example someone sells you a car and then you find out it has no gas or has flat tires or some other flaw or impediment to your enjoying ownership until you have taken remedial (usually expensive) actions or lept through other additional hoops, such as licensing, insurance, taxes, etc.

There is always a 'catch'. Sometimes more than one. In the novel, with many military style euphemisms and typical American acronyms and slang expressions these were generally referred to as Catch 22.

I do hope I have understood your question and answered it satisfactorily.
peace
~jwf~


Rule us Victorias

Post 15029

~ jwf ~ scribblo ergo sum

Here's one that may at first seem pointlessly obscure but then ambiguity seems to be at the kernel of the thing and I know some of you do have time to spend considering these things.

I speak of the 'synonyms' Triumph and Victory.

The etymology of each is quite different and neither really originally meant exactly what we mean today when using them, as many do, interchangably.

It is actually quite surprising to learn how recently they came to their present meanings and historians will no doubt see this as significant to the times and the nature of warfare over the period in which this process happened.

There was also another 'temporal' factor implicit in the meanings as only one was considered a singular event. But this too has been obscured and now we might just as easily hear "We were triumphant in our victory" or "We were victorious in our triumph".

As adjectives they'd be used only after a campaign of multiple victories and/or triumphs leading to a conclusive conquest.
A victory in a single battle was not necessaruly considered triumphal in an ongoing conflict.

But my original fascination with the pair came as a result of recognising that there is no noun like 'victor' avaiable from 'triumph' smiley - bigeyes. While one can be triumphant or hold triumphal celebrations one is never said to be 'the triumphor' as one who is victorious is said to be 'the victor'.

Anyway, well worth some thought and exploration in a couple of good etymological dictionaries. Have fun y'all.

smiley - cheers
~jwf~


Rule us Victorias

Post 15030

Gnomon - time to move on

There was in fact only one catch to joining the army, that was Catch 22.

The only grounds for being dismissed from the army were insanity. You would not be dismissed unless you claimed you were insane. But if you claimed you were insane, then you were obviously trying to get dismissed from the army, which showed that you were perfectly sane and therefore not eligible to be dismissed. That was Catch 22.

The phrase is used for any situation where an apparent paradox prevents you from doing what you want to do.


Rule us Victorias

Post 15031

Maria

smiley - ta



smiley - smiley


Rule us Victorias

Post 15032

~ jwf ~ scribblo ergo sum

>> ...my original fascination with the pair came as a result of recognising that there is no noun like 'victor' avaiable from 'triumph'...<<

Triumph can be a verb but there's no verb derived from victory.
smiley - peacesign
~jwf~

PS: There is at a subconscious level some association bewteen 'triumph' as a verb and 'trump' as a verb.

PPS: Thanks to Gnomon for remembering more about 'Catch 22'
than I ever did. smiley - cheers


Rule us Victorias

Post 15033

Wand'rin star

Triumph is the name of several cars still on the road and one that notoriously isn't.There used to be something called a Victor made by Vauxhall but I haven't seen one of those for thrity years.smiley - starsmiley - star


Rule us Victorias

Post 15034

kuzushi


Victor is a name for boys but Triumph isn't.


Rule us Victorias

Post 15035

Gnomon - time to move on

Victory is winning the war and Triumph is the show you put on afterwards, or the feeling you have after winning the war.

Bill and Ted used the adjective 'triumphant' to mean 'extremely good', as in "before we can make it as a band we need to have a triumphant video".


Arc de Triomphe

Post 15036

kuzushi


I think there's something ironic about this:

"one of the darker chapters of Paris history opened in 1940 as Adolf Hitler and Nazi troops seized Paris, strategically marching under the Arc de Triomphe and onto the Champs-Elysées to mark the city's occupation"


Arc de Triomphe

Post 15037

~ jwf ~ scribblo ergo sum

Speaking of Paris (we'll always have Paris) it was in 'A Tale of Two Cities' that Charles Dickens described how, after being found not guilty by Le Mob Miserable, one of the characters was carried away on their shoulders in the very plush red velvet chair in which he had sat to stand trail. While sitting to stand is curious enough, the phrase he actually used was "...in this car of triumph..." which predates the advent of the Triumph sportscar by nearly a century.
smiley - winkeye
~jwf~


Arc de Triomphe

Post 15038

Is mise Duncan

Au contraire - Triumph motors go back to early biblical times as evidenced by "the roar of Moses' Triumph is heard in the hills"....



Arc de Triomphe

Post 15039

Cheerful Dragon

No, no! That was his motorbike.smiley - tongueout


Arc de Triomphe

Post 15040

~ jwf ~ scribblo ergo sum

>> ... Moses <<

smiley - laugh

Hey, don't forget Noah's Ark of Triumph.
A lesser man might have allowed same sex couples aboard.
Hey, maybe that's what happened to all the dragons and unicorns.

smiley - cheers
~jwf~


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